Swept in from the pub

In my opinion, creating many of these type of guides and linking to them from the TV shows + film articles in the English Wikipedia might help us significantly increase the number of people getting here from Wikipedia. What do you think?

P.S - how many such guides do we currently have? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 23:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Good idea! Note: I believe that a guide about drama XYZ should be written by fans of the dram XYZ, otherwise the spirit might be lost. So I would suggest only writing about dramas you watch. In addition, a collaboration with Wikia might make sense? They have a lot of passionate editors: http://www.wikia.com/WAM (wikis activity ranking) Nicolas1981 (talk) 01:49, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'd prefer to stay away from Wikia as that site has a pattern, when a community leaves and takes its content elsewhere, of leaving the old project open in direct competition with the new wiki - much like IB did to us. That hurts communities because of the duplicate content penalty on search engines.

That said, a look at our list of itineraries should give an idea of how many reference film and video in some manner. I'd think very few have their own itinerary, Radiator Springs being an exceptional case. More often, we mention films "set in" an individual city or "filmed in" an individual city in passing in the city-level article (so Buffalo will mention "Bruce Almighty" just in case anyone wants to ring God on +1-716-776-2323 and maybe Delta City would mention "Robocop" as the only means to Stay safe, as films were set there, but Tulsa might not even mention Weird Al's "UHF" or "The Incredibles" as shot there). Certainly Bedford Falls would mention "Its a Wonderful Life" as the Bailey Building and Loan is the only sound US financial institution, inspiring a museum and a seasonal event which are listed locally (under the towns' real names if the films rename them). It would seem that we create single-city itinerary rarely (Literary London, perchance?) and the "Cars" film only got its own novelty itinerary article as the village depicted is a composite of five states worth of Route 66, so doesn't fit into an individual, real Wikivoyage city. K7L (talk) 02:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I noted a few months ago that WT had one for 'Breaking Bad'. That is actually something that would mostly fit on a map and I'd be interested to visit, and Albuquerque does have a small tourist industry around it.

As with all articles, what is legitimately interesting varies a lot. I loved 'Battlestar Galactica' as a series, but wouldn't want to check out the endless scenes of forests shot around Vancouver. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:53, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

The inspiration for this idea came to me from this website and just from knowing that a big portion of the web traffic Wikipedia gets on a regular basis comes from people whom want to read about pop culture articles, so for example, I am sure that the millions of fans world wide of "The Walking Dead" or "The Twilight Saga film series" or "Harry Potter film series", "The Hangover film series", or the "The Hunger Games film series", or the "The Lord of the Rings+Hobbit film series", or of "Sex and the City", or of "Seinfeld", or of "Friends", or of "Lost", or of "30 Rock", or of "Star Wars film series" will be very very happy to find such detailed open source guides here at Wikivoyage about the locations they would really really want to go and see sometime sooner or later (even though I am sure such free guides exist already in many other websites, nevertheless, such links directed to Wikivoyage from such prominent articles in Wikipedia might get many people over here). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 03:08, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

In addition to Radiator Springs, there's one more: The Wire Tour. Such articles could be very interesting, and I'd welcome more of them. Though it'd be very unfortunate if people would start making articles but leaving them at a few paragraphs (like is the case with all too many travel topics!). In the worst case there might not be anyone here knowledgeable to continue building on an article of this type. ϒpsilon (talk) 05:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Some shows have their own wikis already. My favorite has A Wiki of Ice and Fire and Game of Thrones Wiki, both with a CC-by-SA license. We should not duplicate these but might link to them & consider whether we could do something specifically travel-oriented & get them linking to us. Pashley (talk) 12:32, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'd expect any links would get the infamous rel="nofollow", unlike our Wikipedia interwiki links, so don't expect SEO gains. We also need to be careful about copyright; while there is a "fair use" exemption to allow quoting from copyrighted works to comment on those works, an entire wiki on some proprietary franchise is taking this a bit far. Most of the wiki farms allow fair use to be taken pretty much to the point of abuse, while Wikimedia is inflexibly strict on this point. There, one might get away with "this real thing (image:real photo) inspired this fictional place (image:fictional place in cinema promo poster)" but here we'd have to back off to "this real thing (image:real photo) inspired this fictional place (no photo, but a textual description in our own words)". Certainly, it is common for a fictional item to get several times more Wikipedia page hits than the original, real McCoy (10 views/day for Dawn Welch of the w:Rock Café on Route 66 in Stroud (Oklahoma) vs. 80 views/day for her Pixar cartoon car, w:Sally Carrera, for instance). Ultimately, though, we are constrained by whether there are real places and things to see. Something like "the Grapes of Wrath" goes through plenty of real places, while Darth Vader's Death Star does not. K7L (talk) 15:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

For a Star Wars article, places like Plaza de España in Seville and in Tunisia where the movies were shot would be included. Again, that'd be up to the authors of the article. Also, why would we need to duplicate anything from other sources? Wikivoyage articles are written from a traveler's (traveling fan's?) point of view while a fanwiki is not. ϒpsilon (talk) 16:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Sometimes, the shooting location is far from where the movie purports to be set (so Bruce Almighty and Robocop, while they wrap themselves respectively in the identities of US-Canadian border villages Buffalo and Detroit, were shot nowhere near Lake Erie). Sometimes, a location will be tied in solely as a studio's publicity stunt (Smurfs are Belgian, yet an easy target for a "Smurf village" piece is Júzcar in Andalusia, Spain as the studio literally painted the town Smurf blue). A cartoon may not literally have been "shot" anywhere photographically, yet may slip in obvious parodies of real place names (for instance, by enrolling Fred Flintstone briefly in "Princestone University," aka "P.U.", for one class). K7L (talk) 17:14, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Yes, obviously it depends on the movie/tv series/game and how it was produced. ϒpsilon (talk) 18:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

I've actually been to one of the real-world locations where they shot Star Wars. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Elaborating on this discussion from another perspective, I can already see a *very* long list of what/when/where was filmed at Griffith Park in Los Angeles, from the Batcave entrance to the chase sequences in Rocketeer and Terminator:Salvation. It would blow the scope, wouldn't it. Ibaman (talk) 18:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

In order for such guides to help produce high web traffic to Wikivoyage we should probably not just mentioned the filming locations in our real-world articles about places where filmes were shot. In my opinion, such articles would have to be itinerary articles, probably with names such as "Itinerary for a trip to the filming locations of Game of Thrones", so that we'll be able/allowed to add the links to such articles at the bottom of these prominent Wikipedia articles using the Template:Sister project links template. ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

That's a preposterously long title. I'm in favor of this idea in general, but very much opposed to burdening our articles with stilted prose just for the sake of SEO. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:18, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

How would you rephrase that title? ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 06:13, 17 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Probably Game of Thrones Tour (cf. The Wire Tour). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 09:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

If the community would decide to go ahead and collaboratively produce such comprehensive guides (containing more than just addresses and pictures), a good place to start would be by using some of the filming locations information mentioned at IMDB (Example #1, Example #2, and Example #3). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 18:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

So how would our article on Bedford Falls (It's a Wonderful Life) differ from what's already at Seneca Falls? Would we only create these itineraries when they span more than one village? K7L (talk) 19:44, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

Had to smile when I read this and thought about Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves film were Kevin Costner goes from France to Sherwood Forest via Dover, Stonehenge and Hadrian's Wall, and no one remarks on him not having a sense of direction :-) .--Traveler100 (talk) 20:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)Reply

In a related discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Destination of the month candidates#Personal itineraries as FTT the point was made that "personal" itineraries have great value. For what it's worth, as the person who initially led the charge against the "X in Y Days" articles, I agree - an article like Three days in Singapore is a great article, and if someone can come up with a way to allow more articles like that one while addressing the concerns raised about such articles (see #Tightening the criteria for an itinerary article) then I'd be in full support of bringing them back. However, until somehow can find a way to deal with the problems we experienced with these articles previously I continue to believe that we are better off encouraging users to put content into the main articles rather than into an "X in Y Days" article. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:20, 18 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

Mark me down as opposed in mainspace but in favor in user space or some way where it appears like an "essay" (working title) with a disclaimer along the lines of "this is the personal opinion of User(s) X... if you want to see other things to see and do at said destination see..." Do you think something like this would work? After all, most of the objections against personal itineraries is that those things are difficult to determine by consensus or even majority rule. But if these things are already explicitly labeled as the personal opinion of one or more of our editors, what's the harm? Hobbitschuster (talk) 21:59, 18 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

That's an intriguing idea. We've generally frowned on single-authorship of articles like that, but maybe in this case it's the best solution. There are a couple of problems, primarily involving the high likelihood of scores and scores of stub and out-of-date itineraries in userspace. Powers ^(talk) 01:05, 19 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I think it's the best solution, too. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:57, 19 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I think there is no problem with good personal itineraries. I can imagine edit wars over what points of interest to visit, but I believe they would be rare enough to be handled on a case by case basis (clearer defined theme, possibly forks). Having thirty itineraries for London is no problem, we would just have to label them clearly. For most places there would be none, one or a couple, so those could just be linked.

Personal itineraries on user subpages do no harm. You are probably allowed to plan your journey, and write a diary about it, on such a page. Could be fun reading and space is no concern (you have to write quite a novel to use more storing space than that of one image).

The problems arise when writing itineraries take time and energy from writing destination guides, or when linking from mainspace or wanting cooperation is concerned. I think the rule about having content foremost in destination guides is good. Itinerary stubs could be linked from the talk pages if the author wishes feedback or cooperation (and forgotten if nobody cares), while usable ones could be moved to mainspace and linked from the destination article (or if there are plenty, from a subpage).

I think we quite easily could get a working policy and practice on handling linking and cooperation. The problem that remains is how to use your time. Accepting, but not encouraging, itineraries might be a working solution for the time being.

--LPfi (talk) 08:33, 19 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I guess we cannot (and maybe should not) proscribe which way of spending ones time and editing resources is best. While you may be right that we should not outright encourage said things (unless they prove to be a major draw in pageviews, readership or other desired metrics), we may hammer out a farily lenient and tolerant policy... I am unsure how, but quite confident there is some way... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:31, 19 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I really think we should let go of that perception of "personal". I fully agree mainspace is no place for purely personal opinions, or routes devised by one user that can't be changed by another. I'd say they'd already be allowed in userspace, but such things would be better of on a blog, where readers can find them. I can also see issues with mentioning specific restaurants in e.g. a day in Paris, like most printed guides do.

I don't see, however, why we can't just work jointly on such an itinerary, using discussion where needed, in the same way we determine the nine most notable destinations in a country, or the wording of listings, or a See-section. Over the years, I've written quite a bunch of country See-sections for the abandoned Country surgeon Expedition. In effect, we're doing much the same there as we would do for a "3 weeks in Macedonia" article, just minus the (very useful!) practical planning/timing suggestions and minus the "Do" or "slice of life" activities you would find in a suggested itinerary. I would actually very much like more input for those See-sections, just like I imagine people could work together on itineraries. And if it's too hard to combine opinions on a specific destination in one article, why not make two (possibly themed) itineraries to choose from? They would only have to be linked from any destination article, so it's not like they're in the way and I really don't see people starting to write dozens per place. Especially if we would keep businesses like hotels and restaurants out (rather referring to areas or streets), these itineraries would not be the target of touts.

I'm one of those travellers who depend on suggested tours for planning all the time. I'm not saying I follow them exactly, but they give quick impressions of what I can reasonably see in a given time-frame, and save me a lot of time identifying the most prominent sights. They're much more useful for such rough planning purposes than our practicality-filled articles, as they have focus and take into account travelling times, climate etc. Some time ago, I had a conference in Paris and an extra day to spend afterwards. With a friend, I just wanted to go and see the highlights of town. We have an excellent article on Paris; but it's huge, long, with dozens of sights and lots of information on local transport. An yet, I found myself buying a printed guide on a Paris street, which just gave me a simple route (from which we diverted a few times to see things we liked more), and not looking at the WV article again.

Suggested tours or itineraries don't have to be long at all; especially not in Wikivoyage, since we have that great tool of linking to the relevant articles and sections in our guides. In fact, that would make suggested itineraries here even far MORE useful than those in the printed guides, because one could simply click through to the relevant regions, cities or districts to get more information or alternative suggestions for the next stop. JuliasTravels (talk) 10:07, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

A year and a half ago or something like that I suggested starting up something similar to the other site's Extra for subjective stuff that can nevertheless be useful for fellow voyagers. People weren't very enthusiastic about it back then. Especially for big cities that we cover well (with hundreds of things to see and do), it definitely would be useful to have a couple of non-official itineraries to facilitate travel planning. ϒpsilon (talk) 11:09, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

While I find the concept interesting, I'm afraid our community is still far too small to fill and maintain such a space. I'd say it's more a thing for the future.

I've been reading up on some of the old discussions about the topic (in which I was not involved). What strikes me, is that there's consensus about the fact that such itineraries can be great value when executed well. The main problem seems to have been a wave of class-room article creation that lead to a bunch of unsatisfactory results. Over time, several people have suggested to implement criteria to separate the wheat from the chaff; to make sure we don't get lots of stubs, copies of See-sections, very short walking tours or other articles that don't help us or the traveller. Two topics above, PrinceGloria came up with a first proposal on such criteria, but there was no further discussion. Let's continue from there? If we agree on criteria, I'm happy to come up with suggested policy text. JuliasTravels (talk) 22:01, 22 August 2015 (UTC)Reply

I'm a bit unsure about this recent addition:

• Where a route goes from a well-known destination to a less-known one, put the well-known one first, for example Hong Kong to Kunming overland.

Sometimes, a trip could just as easily be taken in either direction (a Trans-Canada Highway run can start on either coast, while Australia Highway 1 as a ring road can start from anywhere) but occasionally direction does matter. The Orient Express runs east, Route 66 runs west, the RMS Titanic runs west, the original around the world in eighty days trip runs east to use the time zones as a plot device. Flipping a Grapes of Wrath tour to start in California and run to Oklahoma overland doesn't work, even if Californians insist their federated state is the more notable of the pair. The choice of travel direction often does matter and needs to be based on more than just "a well-known destination" first. A safari "Into the darkest heart of the African bush from London" might make more sense than one "Into the darkest heart of Heathrow Airport from the African bush"; one starts at some point that's unexciting but easy to reach internationally. Whether a place is "well known" is only one factor when choosing travel direction. K7L (talk) 18:29, 7 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Add a sentence "When there are no good other reasons for a specific direction of travel..." Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:30, 7 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

I suppose the reason for the addition was to make it easier to find itineraries that are relevant for a specific area. I dislike making editorial choices on technical reasons, and this seems to be a prime example. Instead find a technical solution to the technical problem. I think making an exception where there is a good reason isn't enough, I think the author should think carefully about the direction in which to describe the journey, and any reason, even just a gut feeling, should be a valid reason to choose one direction over the other.

Or is there some other reason to choose the more well-known place as starting point? Then this should be stated, as one more thing for the author to consider. The guide on itineraries could definitively use some expansion, with advice on several points aside from this.

--LPfi (talk) 06:34, 8 April 2018 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

I launched the Stockholm history tour. While many destinations are waypoints, others (typically tall buildings) are landmarks visible from some distance; not intended to be visited during the tour, but mentioned as part of the presentation. Which categories should be used for waypoints and distant landmarks, respectively? /Yvwv (talk) 00:15, 3 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure that there's a rule for this, but there is a generic marker template which would probably work best for both of these. Is the only difference between 'waypoints' and 'distant landmarks' that one is on the itinerary, and the other is not? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 07:02, 3 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

You can categorise them by a type of colour instead of a type of listing. For example, instead of type=see or type=do, if you write type=red, type=blue, type=black, etc. the colour of the listing marker will change to that colour. You can then add a key like in Presidents of the United States which explains what each colour means. Gizza ^(roam) 21:16, 3 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

One can also put the key to be displayed after the title (text) of the mapframe (keep it simple of course). In addition, one can draw a shape and place it on the map and when clicked; its popup could then display a more involved legend. One can also move from 1 map location to another using links within that mapframe; or if desired, even to another article's map (position). It is also possible to introduce links on an article's page to pop up a map displaying only a select group (ie. a map with only See listings or only city listings etc.) All of course requires extra care, thought and effort. (Note: Remember using Kartographer can also be a moving target!) -- Matroc (talk) 00:43, 7 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

I played around with the Stockholm history tour article data on this page to illustrate a few things I mentioned above (Some of which can be complicated to do) if interested. -- Matroc (talk) 05:44, 12 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Do hiking trails count as itineraries? I can't find guidance here or in wv:wiaa. I've found two articles about hiking trails in Canadian provincual parks: Rock Point Trail, a 4.1-km loop in Blue Lake Provincial Park, and Esker Trail, a 5.7-km loop in Bird's Hill Provincial Park (which doesn't have an article). Both articles are quite well developed, but have not been substantially edited since 2009. I have never seen a trail article in Wikivoyage, so I don't know what to do with these. The Esker Trail article is only linked to North America itineraries. I'm inclined to say that we don't cover short trails as separate articles. Ground Zero (talk) 11:17, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, hiking trail articles are acceptable. There are some others as well. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 11:23, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

We've got quite a few hiking trails, mostly in Europe: Coast To Coast Walk, E11 hiking trail, GR 10 etc... All of those are long-distance, but we also have walking tours of cities which are much shorter: KL sightseeing walk, London South Bank Walk, the recently-featured Southern Ridges Walk.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. In that case, I propose to clarify this by adding the italicized text here:

"Examples of good itinerary subjects are Hajj (a traditional pilgrimage route), London South Bank Walk (a city walk), Southern Ridges Walk (a hiking trail), or The Wire Tour (a guide for visiting filming locations for a television show)."

Ground Zero (talk) 11:53, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:27, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

I agree too. I think hiking trails can often be covered in the "Do" section of a city, rural area, or park article. But when there's a lot of detail, an itinerary makes sense. (I wonder if Ad's Path or Ohlone Wilderness Trail would make a better example than Southern Ridges Walk, which looks like as much a city walk as a hiking trail.) —Granger (talk · contribs) 15:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

There's a beautiful boardwalk in Florida that crosses Lake Ashby, which I plan to turn into an itinerary once summer ends and the insects leave. I would prefer Ad's Path to be featured rather than the wilderness trail, which I largely wrote but which I have never completed myself, though I've done some of it. While I'm sure the information is correct (it was partially based upon information from the park map), it's probably best to use the other itinerary just in case EBRPD maps were incorrect. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 15:40, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

As everyone else said: Yes, they absolutely do, if they're covered that way, which is a good way to cover them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, a(n established?) route is an itinerary no matter if voyagers hike, drive, ride or sail along it. --Ypsilon (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'm going to raise a potential objection here. I don't think short hiking trails that don't require directions and don't visit named attractions or points of interest should have a separate itinerary guide. They should be listed in the Do section of the relevant destination article. Powers ^(talk) 17:44, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

I agree. That's roughly the point I was trying to make above—an itinerary article makes sense when there's too much detail to cover in the "Do" section. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:22, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, of course the shorter route, the less there tends to be to write about it (and the less it would need its own article). Ypsilon (talk) 18:46, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Indeed. I agree with you, too, Powers. -- Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:21, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

But if there’s too much content for a listing, it’s only sensible to write a separate article for the hiking trail. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 19:30, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

I very much agree that listings aren't optimal for really "big" attractions or activities that need several paragraphs of text to be described properly. In those cases I usually make a subsection in the See or Do section. Then Template:Marker can be used to show geocoordinates for places in prose - I often write the "Go/Drive/Destinations" sections in itinerary articles in this style (e.g. Highway_4_(Finland)#Drive).

On the other hand, if there is enough content for a full article, editors should by all means go ahead and write one, but I think there should be an alternative between trying to force everything into a single listing and a writing full article. Maybe 7 2 could work as a guideline here too, ie. if the number of POIs is less than 10 or so, the route likely shouldn't have its own article but again it's best to use common sense here. --Ypsilon (talk) 20:18, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘There shouldn't be a hard and fast rule but I think as a general rule, short 1-2 hour hikes probably do not have enough information to merit an article. But on the other hand, there are very long trails that take multiple days to complete, so these could get their own articles. Two I can think of are the Appalachian Trail in the US, and the Heysen Trail in Australia. The dog2 (talk) 20:33, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

What about the Land Art Trail on Mt. Učka? --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 21:50, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

It looks like there's enough information to warrant a separate article, so I have no objection. The dog2 (talk) 22:15, 29 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

See, to me, that's an attraction, not worth its own article. It's like having an itinerary article for a large zoo. There's no need to describe every artwork in a museum, even if the museum is outdoors and several hundred acres. Powers ^(talk) 13:45, 30 June 2020 (UTC)Reply

Inca Trail as an itinerary fits, -- Jesus trail if developed further as well -- Matroc (talk) 03:23, 1 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

Came to mind, but given my mass load of deletions for itineraries recently, I've noticed some "keep" votes, even if there is little content. But I was wondering if we should bring a new page into projectspace (something like Wikivoyage:Itineraries that need TLC) where these itineraries are kept, and if someone wants to work on them, it can. Reasons for this:

1. Often we don't want to delete the content some contributors have put into these articles
2. If someone thinks working on it years later seems a viable option, it's there
3. Often itineraries that were nominated on vfd were worked on for about 1 week

On the other hand:

1. It still gives the creator incentive to make the article usable, and keep this in mainspace. Otherwise projectspace ≠ mainspace, for readers to view
2. This page should only be for pages that are more than a useless stub (so a page like Erlian Grassland Tour Loop or Rama's journeys don't go into this page, and should just be deleted)

If the incentive thing doesn't work, I personally feel like if no one touches the article in this new storage page after a certain amount of time (let's say, 3 years?), it can be deleted without a nom.

Does that work better and a better alternative to deleting? SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 09:24, 16 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

What is TLC? LPfi (talk) 20:26, 16 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Tender loving care. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:29, 16 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think that SHB2000's clean-up of dormant itineraries has been a good project, and has resulted in a number of itineraries being improved. Moving new outline itineraries into project space is a good idea. If a contributor starts an itinerary in the hope that someone else will make it usable, we should be able to figure that out pretty quickly. One year in project space should be enough time to determine whether there is interest in working on them or not. Ground Zero (talk) 20:39, 16 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think our response to a new outline article being created should be encouragement and help in turning it into a detailed, high-quality article, not immediately relegating it to somewhere in project space where it is unlikely to be seen. —Granger (talk · contribs) 10:35, 17 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I'm happy when someone creates a new article with the intent of developing it, although that is better done in User space. Unfortunately what we see mostly is people creating articles for "someone else" to develop. We have hundreds and thousands of stub articles for regular contributors to work on (and I have been adding content to a lot of stub articles), we don't need more added to that list. For example, Kohoku and Miyaki, which were created in 2007 with no content at all, and nothing was done with them for 14 years. These articles don't benefit readers, and stub articles don't make Wikivoyage look like a useful resource. Ground Zero (talk) 12:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I will admit that I myself have created some of these itineraries, although I've worked on them, and nearly all of them are usable. The only one I've created recently that remains outline (Alpine Way), was created as one of my redirects on Khancoban seemed controversial, and every time I went back to the Alpine Way page, I seemed to get emotional (it was the last place I was, before going into a 108 day lockdown, and every time I even saw a link of "Alpine Way", it seemed to give me pre lockdown memories). I do have plans to merge that page though. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 13:01, 17 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

If this thing does go ahead, would this proposal be a good rough draft on how long things should go where:

• Outline itineraries that are not famously marked trails (i.e. something like Easy Rider or even Tanami Track) go here after six months, without a redirect. If there's no edits for six additional months, it can be nominated for deletion via vfd (similar what we already do).
• Outline itineraries that are famously marked trails such as the newly created stub national historic trails go here after 18 months (I would prefer 12 or 15, but I don't think everyone would be happy with that) of no edits without a redirect, and if it remains an outline itinerary after 48 months, it gets deleted via vfd (that is more than enough for anyone to work on it, and the work doesn't get left to Someone else.
• Once an article becomes usable in this project space, it immediately get's moved out
• By definition of "no edits", it means actual actual edits about the itinerary, so things like reverting spam/vandalism, fixing typos, simple copyedits, or formatting fixes don't count

This is far lenient, and gives years to work on it. And I feel that our "don't delete famously marked trails" is somewhat used as an excuse to a) not delete the itinerary, but b) also leave the work to Someone else. So basically, it doesn't get moved here immediately and so it does give time to work on it, but at the same time, it forces the creator to make it usable and out into mainspace. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:30, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I suppose that after 18 months, the original creator has forgotten about it, and it being moved out of mainspace doesn't provide any discouragement. Any one who wanted to work on the itinerary has had plenty of time, but often we want a new user turning up to find and work on that itinerary. Will they find it in project space? By what mechanism? I still believe that the odd outline has a higher probability to be developed than a non-linked trail (this is different from stub travel topics, where the scope and structure is given by the author, not by our guidelines), and that the odd outline does not discourage readers.

One way to make projects space outlines findable would be to leave redlinks in the summary articles (such as United States National Trails System), and give a link to the project space article for users following that redlink (I suppose it could be done with some mediawiki-space magic). That would require the redirect to be deleted.

–LPfi (talk) 11:15, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I wonder what the goal is. Is it closer to "get pages improved" or "hide embarrassingly incomplete pages"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:17, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

When it comes to itinerary and topic articles, we should not be encouraging article creation by people who aren't willing to make the articles usable. Itinerary and topic articles can bring colour and depth to a travel guide, but they are not the core of a travel guide. Dedicated editors are better off spending time improving destination articles than on itinerary and topic articles that are started and abandoned. Saying that such pages are not part of the guide is sensible if people are uncomfortable with deleting them. Ground Zero (talk) 18:43, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

If that's the reasoning, then why not outright delete them? Because we don't have the courage to do that? I don't like that line of thought. Moving the articles to project space signals that this is something the insiders should take care of – but you say we shan't use our energy on that. Then move them to the creators user space. But is this the way to go also for sufficiently famous marked routes? I assumed we wanted those to be written, i.e. have people spend time on them. –LPfi (talk) 18:57, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I think it is because some people think that someone else will work on these articles some day, so it is worth saving whatever text there is. Insiders can work on whatever they want without regard to what I think. For my part, I think that crappy articles put readers off Wikivoyage, so I work on improving the articles we have. But there are so many articles that need improvement to be useful. I think it is a bad idea to have people creating more articles to be improved by "other people". We don't have enough regular contributors to need passers-by to ge creating more clean-up/article improvement work for us.

This stub article sat for 16 years without any useful content being added. This one sat for 15 years waiting for "Someone Else", as did this one. Ground Zero (talk) 19:14, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Agree. And sadly that was the case for much of these. While some were actually worked on well, such as Nidaros Path (even to the point where LPfi made a mapline, which is time consuming but makes it usable), a lot of articles such as Mountains to Sound Greenway have remained an outline (although that has been taken care of) end up in the same state as they were before vfd.

To LPfi's "But is this the way to go also for sufficiently famous marked routes?", and under these proposed proposal, it also includes famously marked routes, so cases like National Historic trails don't get away, as they [some newly created ones] are just as useless since it has no travel info. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 05:25, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

The issue is a long standing one. I personally feel the "notable itinerary" thing is being heavily misused to keep articles, and at the same time, leave it to Someone Else. This is not just for itineraries, but destination articles as well. When I upgraded about 400 articles from outline to usable, almost about 150 of them were stubs that were near useless that it may have been better to not have the article in the first place. I probably improved about 100 of them to bare usable, and redirected the other 50 or so. Such include Houtman Abrolhos, a set of uninhabited islands.

To be fair, I wouldn't normally quote someone who has made a ton of personal attacks, but in this case, KevRobbAU/SCO (since retired) has time and time said that it's better to get articles usable from the very start. And I think we can all agree on that – but sadly that's not the case. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 21:38, 22 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I agree that we have too many weak outlines and that new ones shouldn't be created. I prefer redlinks in most cases where an article would be nice to have. Then, when there is some information not easy to reproduce, deletion is a shame (and redirects problematic). Ideally the proportion of weak outlines would be low enough not to give a bad impression, and we could then keep the few that don't get to usable to be worked on later.

If we disregard the historic baggage of existing stubs, I'd hope we could each avoid creating these outlines, and then we wouldn't have to discuss deleting them. Even if one can create an article with some info, the same work put into improving another article will usually be much more valuable and create no frustration in the community or among readers.

There may be exceptions, such as if you travel through part of an itinerary and thus have unique information on it that you want to save in a findable place, but things that can easily be researched on the net should either be put into a usable itinerary or restricted to a Do listing or Do subsection.

–LPfi (talk) 10:09, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Let me explain why I'm asking what the goal is. We generally agree on these things:

• Some pages (itineraries and other articles) are in poor condition.
• There is more work to be done than volunteers doing it.
• Pages that aren't in the mainspace normally aren't seen by readers or by anyone else, for that matter. Someone else is more likely to clean up a page in the mainspace than to clean up a page outside the mainspace.
• Some pages (and some types of edits) are more valuable to readers than others.
• Volunteers should spend their time making whatever (constructive) contributions they want, even if another volunteer thinks that's a low-value use of time.

There are also things that reasonable people could reasonably hold different opinions about. These things include (but are not limited to) the classic questions of eventualism and immediatism:

• Is it better to look good or to look like this is a wiki that really needs you to plunge forward and contribute to it? Looking "good" might improve people's subjective opinions of the project, but looking "finished" decreases the motivation for newcomers to contribute.
• Is it better to have a page (even if it's an unusable outline) or to have only better-quality pages? Having a page, even if it's mostly empty, might improve search engine traffic (compared to no page) and it provides some information (however tiny that amount might be), but having a high proportion of pages with dramatically less content than other travel sites might decrease people's interest in clicking on links to the project when they see them.

We also have a fairly limited number of options for an incomplete page:

1. We can ignore it (most common action).
2. We can improve it.
3. We can merge it to a bigger page.
4. We can delete it.
5. We can move it to a different namespace.

Option #1 is the default; it provides minimal information to readers and irritates our immediatists and other reputation-minded contributors. Option #2 is highly desirable but not realistic in most cases. Option #3 can be good but is also unrealistic on a large scale. Option #4 increases the value of the median page that a reader will see, but it provides less total information (because readers see fewer pages), and it irritates our eventualists and similarly minded contributors.

Option #5 is IMO the worst of all options. In this option, we aren't offering whatever minimal value the page had to readers; we aren't getting rid of the poor-quality pages; we aren't improving them – in fact, we are doing something that is proven to ensure that the page doesn't get improved. Someone else might only rarely improve articles, but Someone else never improves "draftified" pages. Then, in a couple of years, we'll all pretend that we are shocked, shocked to discover that these hidden pages weren't improved, and the people who would prefer to just delete them now will be able to delete them then without needing to bother with formalities like nominating them for deletion and seeing whether others agree. (Also, we may get disputes about who is allowed to move the pages back to the main namespace under which circumstances.)

So if your goal is:

• providing some information to readers, even if it's not much about any specific subject: You want option #1.
• driving traffic to the site/good SEO (even if people don't stick around because there isn't much information): You want option #1.
• encouraging newcomers by letting them see how much needs to be done: You want option #1.
• having pages that we can be proud of: You want option #4.
• having readers stick around (once they get here, which will happen less often): You want option #4.

The only goal that fits with option #5 is: Eventually being able to delete these pages without so many other editors noticing and possibly objecting. (If that honestly feels like a goal, then the real problem is likely in the deletion policy/process, not in these pages.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:19, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

There is zero chance if Wikivoyage ever "looking finished". I encourage you to pick half a dozen articles at random and review them. Even if articles were to start to look somewhat filled-in, the nature of a travel guide is that it needs constant updating. Let's not waste time on nonsense arguments.

I do not think there is any basis to say that "Someone else never improves "draftified" pages". There is a small possibility that a regular contributor will improve a project page, albeit smaller than they will improve an article, so we should not dismiss project pages altogether. I am indifferent between projectifying or deleting outline itineraries.

There are lots of websites out there that encourage readers to contribute. The websites that bring me back are those that offer information instead of an invitation to "be the first" to write a review. I don't think I am alone in that. Ground Zero (talk) 22:17, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

To WhatamIdoing's question, I get the same sentiments as GZ. Infact, I never even wanted to start this thing, but given that the "well marked itinerary" reason is being misused, I sadly had to do this.

The whole purpose of this is to motivate the page creator to make it usable before a certain amount of time. If it doesn't, ideally it'd be deleted in 12 months time, but the "famously marked trail" is being heavily misused to keep stubby itineraries that drive our reader base away. But regardless, IMO, they shouldn't be in the mainspace, driving our reader base away. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:29, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

WhatamIdoing, I appreciate your points, but keep in mind that pages on people's userspaces are not nominated for deletion. Ikan Kekek (talk) 22:35, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

There was a time in May 2020 when a bunch of fictional destinations in LibMod's userspace was deleted, but that's a different case since he's banned and globally locked. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 22:40, 23 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

And they were fictional. Also, another thing is that draft articles on people's userspaces do sometimes receive substantial collaboration if the host user is OK with that, but usually when they're new. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:37, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Generally, I'm one of those who would want people to edit draft articles in my userspace (examples such as Australian cuisine). Ideally if there were a draft namespace, I'd do that, but we don't have that on voy so userspace is the only option. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 00:41, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

SHB, what is your evidence that incomplete articles are "driving our reader base away"? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero, my basis for saying that other editors do not contribute to draftied articles is some research led by w:en:Aaron Halfaker a couple of years ago. You can read the paper at http://jodischneider.com/pubs/opensym2014.pdf Look for the section titled "AfC hides drafts from potential collaborators" and words like "drafts see a decreased level of collaboration". WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:12, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

@WhatamIdoing: thank you for that article. I didn't read the whole thing, but it seems to support that view that "There is a small possibility that a regular contributor will improve a project page, albeit smaller than they will improve an article", rather than that they will never contribute to a project page.

Wikipedia's AfC is not the process that is being proposed here since that throws up walls at the beginning of an editor's contributions. What is being proposed here is a way of dealing with projects that have been abandoned by the original author, and not taken up by others. So the concerns the paper raises about discouraging new editors don't apply here, in my opinion. Ground Zero (talk) 22:33, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

This research shows that Wikipedia's AfC process is more effective at getting other editors to edit sub-par pages than doing nothing (i.e., what we have here).

This research shows that hiding those pages in another space is less likely to result in improvements than leaving them where they are.

This suggests to me that the sensible options are:

• leave them alone, or
• delete them now.

The proposal to shuffle them into another namespace, keep track of which one(s) were moved when, and remember to come back years later to delete them all is a whole lot of time and effort wasted to produce the same end result. If you want to get rid of them, then just do that.

OTOH, if you feel that you can't justify deleting them, then leave them alone, because leaving them right where they are gives them the best (albeit very small) chance of being improved.

What I don't want to see is us claiming that we are encouraging improvements to these pages while we are actively doing one of the few things that's been definitely proven to reduce the (already small) chance of improvements. If we're ready to give up on them, then let's use the delete button. If we're not, then let's give them the best chance possible, which means leaving them where they are now. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:59, 24 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Wikivoyage and Wikipedia are very different communities, largely because one is quite small and the other is very very big, so the lessons learned from one community are often not applicable to the other. What we do know, though, is that we have a really large pile of stubs started up to 18 years ago that have had no substantive edits since they were started. Giving stub articles "the best chance possible" means greeting a lot of first-time visitors with useless pages that give them no reason to want to spend more time here. For my part, I am happy to delete articles that no-one wants to improve after a reasonable time. I think that SHB2000's proposal is aimed at assuaging those community members who still see a glimmer of hope the Someone Else will rescue these articles someday. I am not one of those people. Ground Zero (talk) 01:04, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I agree with WhatamIdoing that doing something just to assuage the opposition is suboptimal, and I think the reasoning behind "never delete real places" is flawed. At the start, the site did want to get a reasonable coverage, and at that point one couldn't be too choosy about what articles to "approve". Wikipedia had a similar infancy. Now, when large parts of our coverage is well-developed, a pile of stubs somewhere gives a bad impression that we can avoid. Still, I think the project page solutions has merits, if implemented well.

The problem with piles of stubs is mostly about mass created city articles and regions without content. For itineraries I don't see the same problem. We have 186 outline itineraries, which is about half of the itineraries and few enough that a single editor could improve them all (although this would be less efficient use of resources). A list where half the entries are usable or better is not a disaster.

Most outline itineraries have sensible names, suggesting they are worth writing. Thus I don't think personal itineraries are an issue any more. Some, such as Markha Valley Trek, have a reasonable Understand, which will not frustrate readers, unless they have high expectations. Those should remain as linked itineraries in mainspace, in the hope on them being improved at some time. Others, such as Congo Nile Trail, doesn't give enough information to be useful at all, and is the kind we are discussing (the author of this one left when some links were removed as touting). Then we have the lists, such as the US trails and Long distance walking in Europe, enticing passers-by to contribute as best they can.

I think the most important step is to nip in the bud: get consensus on that creating stubs isn't making Wikivoyage better (other than in special cases), and avoid having lures in the form of lists of redlinks (give an external link instead, if warranted, such as with the American and European trail systems. We might reinsert the redlinks at a point where we do want passer-by contributions and have enough content that a few weak outlines are no problem.

Then we have existing or newly created weak outlines. Some could be redirected to a Do or Go next listing (the latter not according to current guidelines), based either on the outline or on new research, which would give enough hints for a reader to find information on their own. The redirect name could be saved as a comment in the listing, perhaps as a hidden template field (outline_at=).

Then we have itineraries we cannot usefully link to or include in the articles, as they would be frustrating if linked directly and info for a listing is too hard to find. Those shouldn't be exposed to readers. Those without any usable info could be deleted, but I don't think moving them to the user space of the author does any harm. We could have a page Wikivoyage:Suggested itineraries linking to a category page for weak outlines moved to user or project space (such as subpages of Suggested itineraries).

Although few of the suggested itineraries will grove, I think some might, and this would be a low-cost solution to avoid long discussions on borderline cases, and in cases where somebody gets inspired by a "suggested itinerary" it makes a real contribution.

–LPfi (talk) 09:01, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I still think it should be the rule that real places of any significance shouldn't be deleted, but a lot of merging is reasonable. Itineraries aren't places, so this doesn't apply to them. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:33, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I would generally tend to half agree with "real places of any significance" with the key word being significance. Unfortunately, I've had to recently merge articles because someone created it because of one roadhouse or one hotel. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:11, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Yes, because if that content is merged, the attribution needs to be kept intact. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:56, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

It is possible to merge the article, and then not have a page under the name such as moving it to a different name space, without a redirect, and then fully protecting that page or less favourable, listing all the authors on the relevant talk page (that is not advised as it doesn't tell who wrote what). It's a similar reason to why we can't delete Template:RegionStats/depreciated since the new modified template is based on that template. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 10:59, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

There are lots of things that are possible, but they mess up the attribution. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:08, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

And the risk of someone turning a redirected page back into a separate page is so low that such maneuvers seem like a waste of effort. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:36, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I feel like redirects being turned back into separate articles hasn't been quite so rare here as you'd think. And sometimes it's been done very well. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:29, 25 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

I have recently been trying to turn back redirects back into articles using Category:Redirects connected to a Wikidata item as a starting point. Not every redirect in that category is suitable to be turned back but most are. But I agree that new editors in particular, who are not aware that this category exists won't be turning redirects into articles and are much more likely to expand a stub if the stub exists because it's easier to find. Gizza ^(roam) 01:18, 26 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

I recently just tagged a bunch pages of pages that redirected to now deleted itinerary’s (like the TANAMI track), can an admin delete those pages. All of them now have the {{Speedy}} template Tai123.123 (talk) 14:57, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Done. –LPfi (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Tai123.123 (talk) 16:04, 28 October 2021 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

What if we had a way for a user (probably a logged-in user) to save individual listings to a custom itinerary? (Not a Wikivoyage Itinerary, just in the generic sense of the word.) Or even save individual listings to a Google Map? Some way a user could record places he or she wants to go? Powers ^(talk) 20:37, 15 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Something kinda like this? User:Nelson Ricardo 2500/test places --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:29, 15 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Roughly, but see my response to WhatamIdoing well below. Powers ^(talk) 19:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

The way I understand the idea, is it's like a personalised version of an article, that lists only the POIs that the owner is interested in. That is already doable by a manual copy-and-paste, but I assume the idea is for something more high-tech, where the user could just tap or click a button on a listing in Prague, which copies the listing over to ThunderingTyphoons!' Prague itinerary.

That seems like a great idea to me, but I don't know how to implement it.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:22, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose First of all, there are multiple issues with this proposal. The first and the foremost is that most readers don't have an account and IP users are not allowed to have user pages or user subpages; IPs periodically change over time so if we are going to be the only Wikimedia project that openly allows such, then we're going to have to do some serious janitorial work in deleting these subpages after a few months. Additionally, this is going to require some brand new tools and gadgets that will take a lot of time – really not worth the time and effort. Finally, saving individual listings to Google Maps is against our what not to link to policy, so no, I oppose this proposal. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:04, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

What do you mean, IP users are not allowed to have user pages or subpages? Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:32, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I don't know whether it's a global policy or a policy only on Meta-Wiki and I think Wikipedia too, but as far as I'm aware, both those projects speedily delete IP userpages or IP subpages as IPs aren't permanently assigned to one user. Our policies don't seem to say anything about this, but maybe WhatamIdoing might be able to explain this better. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 12:41, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

enwiki allows IP user pages, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:220.101.28.25 and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:81.168.80.170 Twsabin (talk) 14:39, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

We do, too. IPs' user pages are never deleted here unless they are spam or vandalism. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Those seem to be at least a decade old though. I just tried making one and the software wouldn't allow me. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 23:23, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

That's very disconcerting. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:07, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I managed to create one, first ensuring I was in an incognito window. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 23:25, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

With respect, SHB2000, I think your objections are ill-considered. Firstly, I didn't say anything about IP user pages or subpages; there may very well be ways to implement this that don't rely on them. Second, while it's true that this would require some development effort, you don't even attempt to make a case that the benefit isn't "worth the time and effort". Yes, it would be a lot of effort, but if the return is great enough, it might still be "worth it". (I'm not making a claim either way, just pointing out that you failed to support yours.) Third, what not to link to is about things that are better done here on Wikivoyage; if you're claiming it shouldn't be on Wikivoyage in the first place, then what not to link to doesn't apply. Powers ^(talk) 19:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Okay, so if I wasn't clear enough, here's a longer but briefer explanation. Such a tool would work very similar to the already existing editor, but maintaining such scripts is very difficult (I do maintain a few of these scripts IRL) and even if this went ahead, there are a few issues:

• Like the listing editor, users will need to have javascript enabled. Without javascript, it simply won't work.
• If this tool just copies down all the important pieces of a listing to a separate page, the tool needs to give attribution in the edit summary – otherwise, it's a violation of our copyleft license.
• This won't work for outline articles that have little to no content
• Users might be intimidated if they want to edit the listing – I'm guessing only maybe 1 or 2 per cent of our readers will know what Wikidata is (which is one of the main sources we use to get coordinates).

What more, this exact same thing can be done with geojson.io. We have few editors who actively maintain scripts like these, and only a fraction out of the few who can will be willing to spend a lot of time and effort into something that isn't even really worth spending that much time anyway. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta.wikimedia) 11:22, 19 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for explaining further, but I really think you're getting hung up on implementation details that might not even apply for some of the directions we could go with this feature. Powers ^(talk) 12:11, 21 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Powers, were you thinking about individual listings (first the museum, then the restaurant, back to the hotel), or about destinations (San Francisco, then Napa Valley, then Yosemite)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:07, 17 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Individual listings. Powers ^(talk) 19:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

• What's stopping a user from creating a personal itinerary in userspace under current policy? I'm curious as to the need for a change. As for as I'm concerned, I could create an itinerary in userspace based on an OSM map, and surely, it wouldn't be deleted as out of scope? I'd prefer for the above reasons to avoid Google Maps. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 21:22, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

  I already have that: User:AlasdairW/Testpage. This is currently showing a few places that I stayed in in 2018. At that time it was used to send to friends showing where I would be staying on a trip - they got the dates etc in an email that linked to this page.

  I would support having a policy that explicitly allowed such a page (for signed in users), as they might be more inclined to also update the article pages at the same time. I think that such pages should stick to using our mapframes, although I would be happy with a tool that allowed a list of lat/longs to exported for use with other tools including Google maps, car GPS systems etc. AlasdairW (talk) 22:54, 18 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

  Well, willingness and ability to edit wiki pages, primarily, as well as the cumbersome need to copy+paste listings. I'm envisioning a one-click kind of "add to personal itinerary" button on each listing. The use case would be a non-editor coming to Wikivoyage to learn about a destination (or several related ones) and assembling a list/map of highlights she wants to be sure to hit on her trip. Can she just write them down somewhere, or copy+paste them to a personal Google map? Sure, but the proposed feature would remove several steps. Powers ^(talk) 12:11, 21 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

I want to cover some World Heritage itineraries like Kalka–Shimla Railway and Nilgiri Mountain Railway without creating separate articles. Can an itinerary be covered in an existing city or region article without creating a separate itinerary article? Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 11:18, 23 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

They can be mentioned and described in short in city or region articles. For those that have good official sites, linking that would enable people to follow it; otherwise such a listing requires a lot of own research from the traveller. World Heritage itineraries should still be worth listing. Give as much info as you can; if you get more than a few paragraphs (in a subsection), then start an outline and link that. –LPfi (talk) 11:49, 23 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it definitely can. Examples of such do exist, such as Mungo National Park#Mungo loop track or Klaksvík#Climbing Mount Klakkur. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 11:58, 23 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

[edit conflict] I now looked at Shimla#By train. As one can just take the train, mentioning it as a world heritage helps, but if you have further information, other than what can easily be got by following the Wikipedia link I added, then it should probably get a subsection and listing in See/Itineraries, and it could be developed into an itinerary article. If you don't want to write the article, then don't, just add what you think would be useful. –LPfi (talk) 12:01, 23 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for input. Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:59, 26 December 2022 (UTC)Reply