<begin draft for discussion>

Times

Use the format of 10:30AM-5PM.

Use noon and midnight, not 12AM or 12PM.

Note:

• Decimals not used when not required, eg not 5:00PM.
• Where decimals are required, colon used as the separator, eg not 5.30PM or 5-30PM.
• Ante meridiem and post meridiem abbreviated and capitalised as AM and PM.
• Spaces and periods (fullstops) left out, eg not 10:30 A.M. – 5 P.M.
• 12-hour format rather than 24-hour format, eg 5PM, not 1700.

Days

Abbreviate to the minimum number of letters, ie M Tu W Th F Sa Su.

Exceptions:

• Spell out when it is part of a named day, eg Good Friday, Fat Tuesday.
• If it looks odd or ambiguous in a particular context, spell it out.

We should use 2 Letters for each day, ie. Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa Su. This is more consistent and readable, and, in my opinion also more intuitive. (M 10am-3pm vs Mo 10am-3pm) - (WT-en) Nils Jan 8th, 2004

Months

Abbreviate to three letters, ie Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec.

Dates

Use the format of 10 Jan 2003 (as dates appear when you add a name and time signature using 4 tildes).

• Never use dates of the form 10/1/03. This example would mean 10 Jan 2003 or 1 Oct 2003 to different people.

<end main draft>

Points for possible discussion

• Abbrevn for ante meridiem and post meridiem. I prefer am and pm to AM and PM - the full words aren't capitalised.

I prefer lowercase too. -(WT-en) phma 19:27, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

• Abbrevs for months.

• Date format.

Holidays occurring on a fixed date

I expect that most people, including those not from a Christian tradition, know that Christmas Day is 25 Dec. But not every one will know the date of Boxing Day or ANZAC Day. Possible solutions:

1. Give the date not the name, eg "Closed 25 Apr".
2. Give the name and the date, eg something like "Closed ANZAC Day (25 Apr)".
3. List holidays in the article for the appropriate level (eg national holidays in the country article, local holidays in the article for the state, county or whatever) and then use the name, eg "Closed ANZAC Day".

I think I prefer solution 3.

For holidays not occurring on a fixed date I don’t think there is any alternative to, for example, "Closed Good Friday". (WT-en) Nurg 18:42, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

What about Thanksgiving? Canada and USA both celebrate it but on different dates. Countries using the Julian calendar for religious purposes may celebrate Good Friday on a different date than those using the Gregorian. As to Fat Tuesday, even many Anglophones would know that better by its French translation, and I have to translate it to recognize it; and I wouldn't know how to find it on a calendar. -(WT-en) phma 19:27, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

I'd say solution 2 above is the obvious one to use as the default solution, because it is easiest to read. Solution three makes the traveller do more work in order to save editing effort or storage space, so I think it is wrong in most cases. The exception would be where it is a very common holiday; you don't need to give the date of ANZAC day in every Australia article. This then becomes a question of jdgement for the writer, but I'd say if in doubt, use pattern #2 above. (WT-en) Pashley 21:17, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

I'm glad this page has been started and I'm interested in seeing where it goes.

I don't have a big problem with going to am and pm versus AM and PM. My main concern is whether we should get in the habit of changing our preferred style on anything because the new style is marginally better than the old style.

Preferring one thing to another is fine, but by making something our standard, it means we're requiring ourselves to change any current content in that format. So, the advantages of any change should probably justify the work involved to change it.

I added a note on time zones. It should probably be obvious that times should be in the local time zone, but I made it explicit just in case. There are some cases where it might not be: The train leaves Paris each night at 9PM and arrives the next day in Lisbon at 4PM. Which time zone are the times in? I think most train and plane tickets use the local time on arrival and departure, but.

Also, it might be worthwhile to point out time range format. Like, "9-11am", "10am-4pm", "noon-midnight", "24 hours", whatever. --(WT-en) Evan 19:58, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

I would specify both time zones if they are different: "The train leaves Paris each night at 9pm MET and arrives the next day in Lisbon at 4pm WET."

As an absolute time, midnight belongs to the following day, but some places, such as bars and pizzerias, open in the afternoon and close after the following midnight. So 5pm-3am Friday ends on Saturday. -(WT-en) phma 21:08, 26 Dec 2003 (PST)

I'm not particularly opinionated about this, but why do we have to write "AM" and "PM" (or possibly "am" and "pm" if it gets changed) instead of "a.m." and "p.m.", which are the only accepted abbreviations in 3 dictionaries I consulted (Oxford Reference, Australian Concise Oxford and Collins Cobuild)? (WT-en) DhDh 13:29, 28 Dec 2003 (PST)

"am" vs. "a.m." vs. "AM" vs. "A.M." isn't particularly important. We went with "AM" to start off, and now there's some moves to use "am" instead. We can go through all 4 possibilities, as well as exploring some less obvious ones, like "ant. merid." or "M.A." or whatever.

We have suggestions as to why "am" would have been a better choice 6 months ago than "AM", and why "a.m." would have been better than both of them. What I haven't seen is a good reason why we should change from "AM" to either one of these right now. --(WT-en) Evan 08:21, 29 Dec 2003 (PST)

Use something that is easy on the eyes. AM is. am is sort of. a.m. isn't. Remember, we use these in short, crowded paragraphs about attractions etc. A point could be made to go with 24h format, since it is much easier esp. with noon/midnight. But since that would be opening up a whole string of arguments I'll ceede to the anglophiles on the point. Just don't make me use imperial units. (WT-en) Nils Jan 8th, 2004

Hey, thats not an anglophile issue; us Brits may be hopelessly backward on imperial units, but on the subject of 12/24h clocks we swing with the rest of Europe :-). Seriously I think most people who have enough english for wikivoyage to be useful can in general handle either clock format. What I certainly cannot handle is 12am or 12pm; I have no idea what those mean and in general usage I will always use 'noon' and 'midnight' (or 00:00 and 12:00). I don't really care whether wikivoyage stays 12h or goes 24h but I suggest we mandate 'noon' and 'midnight' if we stay 12h. --(WT-en) chris_j_wood May 14th, 2004

I think 24h time would solve this notation ( AM Vs am ) problem, along with noon and midnight. Looks like our signatures already use it so it would also add consistency. --(WT-en) Caffeine 16:30, 15 Mar 2004 (EST)

Another vote for 24h time format, with colon separator.

Should there be a link to this from Project:Manual of style#Formatting style?

The problem with 24 hour time is that a lot of people (i.e. travelers) find them confusing. Although I work in an organisation that uses a 24 hour clock, I note that many people are unable to convert between the two systems easily and are totally confused when confronted with a 24 hour time. While the people who are familiar with 24 hour time recognise the system, those who are not, won't. Using AM and PM is unambiguous. You just know it is 12 hour time. And so does everyone else. While I, personally, would happily accept 24 hour time, for clarity, I will instead plug for 12 hour time with AM and PM, NOON and MIDNIGHT as it is unambiguous and will nt be confusing or misunderstood.

As to whether it is AM, Am, am, a.m. or ante meridiem .... I do not think the dictionaries are necessarily the best guide. While a.m. might be the dictionary definition, it is only the consensus or popular way it is used. Dictionaries merely document the generally accepted way to use words, but word usage does change with writing style and usage. And when it does the definition in the dictionary will also change. I see that using AM (or PM) is the Wikivoyage style and usage definition. In other words it is our way of doing things, like american spelling, we have chosen a particular path for some very good reasons. Some of those reason include clarity, ease of writing and viewing as well unambiguous meaning. I do not think many people will confuse AM for amplitude modulation when expressed in the context of opening hours.

For times that cross time-zones, either identify the time standard being used or state it is the local time of each destination. -- (WT-en) Huttite 05:30, 1 Dec 2005 (EST)

I reckon 24h is less confusing and would be surprised if that puts me in a minority. However, what's most confusing of all about 12h is that so many people frequently get it wrong when editing - "AM"s which should be "PM"s and vice-versa, and of course "12 AM" and "12 PM".

How about entering times in a format such as [12:34] and then a truly standard "style" being applied when the page is output?

I've seen mention of "skins" somewhere - couldn't people then have times displayed in their preferred format?

(apologies for poor descriptions - not familiar with the terminology)

Reopening discussion, as the policy was just changed w/o discussion. (WT-en) Jonboy 11:56, 1 March 2006 (EST)

The most common method for listing ante meridiem or post meridiem used in written text is a.m. and p.m. The only time that AM or PM is used is on time tables on doors of stores. Style guides recommend a.m. and p.m. Times should be listed as: 12:30 a.m. format

Why should we make the effort to change? It doesn't seem even remotely worth it to me. --(WT-en) Evan 14:17, 1 March 2006 (EST)

Why not use whatever the majority of airlines use? -- anon

From a graphics design point-of-view, lowercase looks much much better. Enough to make it well worth the change. I prefer the version without the periods. -- (WT-en) Mark 01:55, 8 March 2006 (EST)

AM and PM are widely used, e.g. on signs as someone mentions above. The issue here is not design in the sense of how it looks, but design for clarity, easy recognition. I agree am and pm look better, but I'd say AM and PM are obviously correct. (WT-en) Pashley 05:44, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

I think the all-caps version looks ugly, and that the periods look even uglier. Count me as someone who'd like to change to 'am' and 'pm' -- if we can go to the effort of completely changing telephone number formats, we can certainly manage switching times over, particularly since so few attraction listings actually include a time. -- (WT-en) Colin 23:18, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

Despite my comment above, after looking at a few listings, I agree. am and pm are more readable. So I'd say we should use am and pm in North america and 24-hour clock (see discussion further on) everywhere else. However, Evan's question is a good one; it may not be worth the effort of changing. (WT-en) Pashley 08:31, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Can we get some consensus on this particular question? My opinion is that lower case am or pm (without periods) looks far better than AM or PM - certainly much better than A.M. or P.M. Using capitals appears to make the times far less legible... (WT-en) Paul James Cowie 07:08, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

There is no "obviously correct" choice. I'm in favor of "am"/"pm", also for general readability. As for the burden of changing, usage is still pretty inconsistent in Wikivoyage at this point, so I don't see a gradual transition as substantially more onerous than MoS-ing in general. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 07:33, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

"This system is the most commonly used time notation in the world of today. The United States is the only industrialized country left in which a substantial fraction of the population is not yet accustomed to it."

At the risk of opening a can of worms, I wouldn't be too averse to standardizing on the 24-hour clock elsewhere in the world (it's what all schedules etc use anyway, so even Yankees better get used to it) and letting the USA fester in its own legacy cesspool — we already do this for miles, Fahrenheit etc anyway. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:54, 5 March 2006 (EST)

A quote from the Cambridge page on the ISO Standard date format:

"The 24h time notation specified here has already been the de-facto standard all over the world in written language for decades. The only exception are a few English speaking countries, ...

"Please consider the 12h time to be a relic from the dark ages when Roman numerals were used, the number zero had not yet been invented and analog clocks were the only known form of displaying a time. Please avoid using it today, especially in technical applications! Even in the U.S., the widely respected Chicago Manual of Style now recommends using the international standard time notation in publications.

I'd say the 24-hour clock is definitely the way to go. (WT-en) Pashley 10:12, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

I'm fine with allowing 24 hour time in countries where schedules are routinely printed in 24 hour format. But I'd really like to keep am/pm for Norteamerica since a) it is the most common local format, b) most travelers to Norteamerica are Norteamerican and c) I assume international travelers still recall how to read analog clocks and are therefore familar with am/pm. -- (WT-en) Colin 23:15, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

So you're agreeing with Jpatokal above. I'm happy with that too. Sounds to me like we have a consensus. Anyone want to scream before I change the page? (WT-en) Pashley 08:16, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

Scream. I think it's a bad idea to change MoS pages for marginal advantages, especially when we have so many guides already started. Can you justify why changing from 12h to 24h is worth the time, effort, and disruption? I don't think it is. --(WT-en) Evan 09:11, 11 May 2006 (EDT)

No scream. I assume that in many existing guides with input from people outside the US, 24 hour time was used already, because those users (me included) didn't even know about the current style guide. Also, for most non-US Wikivoyage visitors it's quite troublesome to convert the 12-hour AM/PM times to the usual 24-hour times. A guide should help, not create or add "problems". --(WT-en) Túrelio 14:56, 13 May 2006 (EDT)

SCREAM! I've been happily ignoring all rules with regard to dates and times. Additionally, I'm somewhat surprised that policy hasn't been changed since it seems we have a consensus with the exception of Evan's objection, which seems to stand on the objection that he was expecting a wholesale conversion of 2AM to 02:00 on every single guide. For the sake of compromise I suggest we adapt this as policy and no one go out of the way to change every single 2AM to 02:00. To further my arguments I trump The traveller comes first. I'm more than willing to wade in my "legacy cesspool" for the sake of everyone else in the world. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 03:48, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Andrew: all I'm asking is for someone to say, "Yes, it's worth the trouble of changing every single guide to have 24 hour time." I don't think it's the case. Is 24-hour time so much better that it's worth the effort? Or is this just a run-around for Wikivoyagers who could be spending their limited time on the site doing more important things?

I'm less interested in this particular case than in the general case. It's pretty important, when proposing a change to the MoS, to take into account the amount of effort it's going to take to change it. --(WT-en) Evan 16:07, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Moved from Evan's talk page:

Also, I'm not very hell-bent on spelling out the days of the weeks, however, I am a strong believer in 24 hour format and I think converting to that format should be a route to explore. I originally hated the 24 hour format, but I changed my opinion of the format about two months ago. I'm very tempted to say that it would be worth the hassle. It's not as a daunting task as changing 10,000 articles since many (like Ajax) don't even have times or dates in the article. Also, it took us roughly four months to get rid of the "External Links" section. While I'm sure MoSing time formats will take a little longer than four months. I don't believe converting from AM/PM to 24 hours will distract too much from the and constructively contributing to Wikivoyage, since I think most people will MoS the format as they just happen to notice the difference in formats on an article. -- (WT-en) Sapphire 16:53, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

I just want to make sure that people are a) thinking in terms of what's best for the project and for the traveler, not just of their own personal preferences, b) accepting that making MoS changes means changing a lot of articles, and c) not changing itsy-bitsy things on the MoS so often that its value as a reference becomes meaningless. --(WT-en) Evan 17:35, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

I understand those concerns and my personal preferences with regards to certain things have been developed over travelling and talking with travellers. When I send an email to a friend in Poland telling her the time I'll be arriving I always use "14:37" or whatever because it's the format she's familiar with and it leaves no doubt that she won't show up at 2 in the morning and I won't have to wait 12 hours. While in Warsaw I missed my train to Germany, because of my disregard for the 24 hour format. The woman in the ticket office tried to tell me the my train left at "8 PM", but since she wasn't very familiar with English I ended up missing my train since it actually left at 8 AM. It's somewhat easy to look over the "A" or "P" and confuse the times. -- 71.72.212.152 18:48, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Is this can of worms being handeled? I think because of the nature of this guide / wiki we should try to adopt the most easy time notification system available. PM / AM is not common outside UK and and US. I'd prefer the 24 hour format. (WT-en) Aixroot 08:54, 19 August 2010 (EDT)

→ #International time formats --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 13:01, 19 August 2010 (EDT)

alternative "Mon-Tue" format suggestion (compromise?):

Abbreviate to three letters, ie Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat Sun

Note:

• Spell out when it is part of a named day, eg Good Friday, Fat Tuesday
• If it looks odd or ambiguous in a particular context, spell it out
• Spaces should be left out, eg "Mon-Fri" not "Mon - Fri" or "Mon thru Fri"
• For consistency/clarity, include the dash for consecutive pairs of days, eg "Sat-Sun" not "Sat Sun"
• When combining days with time, put the days first, eg Mon-Fri 10AM-2PM rather than 10AM-2PM Mon-Fri
• For all seven days, use "daily" - do not use "every day" or "Sun-Sat"

I like the three-letter forms for use in schedules, listings, etc. It makes easier reading than the shorter abbreviations. I'm a little amazed that the short ones were even proposed, let alone used. In running text, I see no reason to abbreviate at all. Use Monday, Tuesday, etc. because it is clearer. The traveller comes first so easy reading comes way ahead of saving bytes. (WT-en) Pashley 05:53, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

I agree with the use of three-letter forms. I also prefer the term "daily" to "every day". - (WT-en) Cybjorg 03:02, 16 May 2006 (EDT)

I think two or three letter forms are the way to go. M-Tu is weird, as it is not consistent. M has one letter, while Tu has two letters. By using a two or three letter-system, it's consistent, thus more readable. And it's still abbreviated if we use Mo-Tu or Mon-Tue. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 20:20, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I think the time is long past to be discussing this. =) Space is at a premium in listings, and M Tu W Th F Sa Su are commonly used enough that no one should get confused. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:23, 22 December 2009 (EST)

It'd be great if on Project:Time and date formats, the use of placement of "daily" could be specified as it is on the Project:Star nominations page; on the former, no where is mentioned that "daily" should be placed after the hours of operation yet on the latter it specifically states the placement. (WT-en) Zepppep 14:18, 22 February 2012 (EST)

Done, Zepppep. Nurg (talk) 09:33, 1 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure why the Star nom page is so adamant about the placement of "daily". I don't think we've ever cared whether it goes before or after the time. LtPowers (talk) 14:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

I can't see any discussion of that weird idea that daily should follow the opening hours - it seems to have just crept in on that Star Nom page. If we already say that we prefer seasons first, then months, then days of the week and then the times, it would seem more logical to write something like "Summer 26 Jun-31 Aug daily 09:00-17:30" as the seventh day extension of: "Autumn 1 Sep-3 Nov M-Sa 09:45-16:30" -- Alice^✉ 06:53, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I tend to agree, and usually write "Daily 24 hours" or "Daily 9AM-5PM" myself. LtPowers (talk) 14:36, 2 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

There is an ISO standard (ISO 8601) for date formats The date given above — 05:53, 9 May 2006 (EDT) — comes out in it as 2006-05-09 05:53 -5 I'd suggest we use 2006-05-09 05:53 utc-5, adding the "utc" makes it more readable. An important advantage is that this date format is the same across language versions, unlike month names. Adding "utc" does not cause a problem there in european languages. The standard uses the 24-hour clock. (WT-en) Pashley 09:45, 9 May 2006 (EDT)

My reading of the above is that we have consensus that three changes would be a good idea:

• use 24-hour clock except in North America
• replace "AM" with "am" when using 12-hour clock
• use three-letter abbreviations for days of the week, for easier reading

Am I wrong about the consensus on any of those?

What we don't have consensus on is that making any changes is worth the trouble. I'd agree with Todd's comment; we aren't all that consistent now so a gradual change is not going to be too burdensome. Anyone else want to comment? (WT-en) Pashley 10:05, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

Me too for all of the above. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:02, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

No Change - Sorry, but I don't see the need to replace "AM" with "am" the advantage is marginal and all of the star articles would need to be changed and I am guessing, but likely most of the Guide articles would need change as well. And for that matter I don't really see the need to change anything in the standard. I would not be against the 24 hour clock, but the standard has been American English... Why vary in this standard? -- (WT-en) Tom Holland (xltel) 11:27, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

I disagree that having different time formats in different areas is preferable. I think that three-letter abbreviations will make the hours too long. I also disagree that making any of these changes is worth the effort. --(WT-en) Evan 17:29, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

Making the hours listings longer at the expense of making them readable (as opposed to "decryptible") is a sacrifice I'm OK with. "Sa Su" looks like the name of a German Linux distro, not a reference to the two days of the weekend. Frankly, 24-hour time - as sensible as it is - is similarly cryptic to those who haven't lived with it, and using different standards on different pages will just confuse the heck out of the majority of editors who simply (sort of) follow existing examples rather than reading the MoS page. -(WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:44, 26 May 2006 (EDT)

I'm I wrong that the Wiki folks want the date/time to be: Tu-F 2PM-5PM. (WT-en) Unizeppelin 03:07, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

I have no idea if I'm starting a new discussion or reviving an old one, but I'd really like the policy to require days of the week to be spelled out. I used to use abbreviated day names, but I've come to dislike abbreviated names for days. I believe policy tell us to use the minimum number of letters required to abbreviate a day's name for the sake of space, but that doesn't seem to be very 'professional.' (Maybe, it's personal preference.) Would anyone object to this change? -- (WT-en) Sapphire 03:31, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

Yes, I would. First, is this important enough to change every guide on the whole site? Only for your personal preference? Second, very short day names are the standard for most guidebooks. They take up a lot less space and visual room, and if you're leafing through a lot of listings, it's very easy to tell "W" from "Th". --(WT-en) Evan 16:13, 13 September 2006 (EDT)

What is our policy on how to display hours when a business is open around the clock? I was thinking just writing "24 hours," e.g.,

M-Th 9AM-2AM, F-Su 24 hours

Is this style write-up intelligible to non-US nationals? Is this the best way to do this? If so, I'll add it to the policy page. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:48, 8 November 2007 (EST)

Looks OK to me, and I've been doing more or less the same thing in Singapore (cf. The Balcony at ). (WT-en) Jpatokal 01:31, 8 November 2007 (EST)

I have checked with colleagues that include 29 nationalities (mainly European and Asian but all frequent travellers) and this is very understandable. Only other alternative would be 24/7. so after nearly 6 years I hope this will not be a controversial addition to the policy page. -- Alice^✉ 08:12, 18 January 2013 (UTC)

I don't know off the top of my head where, but we decided somewhere to go with 24 hours daily. --Peter ^Talk 10:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I must say that 24/7 seems pretty widespread, and that 24 hours daily is not immediately recognisable as expressing that intended meaning ... and it's a bit stilted to me. 24/7 is consistent with the less formal register I'm finding on en.WV, which is appropriate for the project, IMO. Tony (talk) 12:42, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The 24 hours bit following hours that apply to the whole week is in the policy article here, has been on the star article checklist forever (and is therefore present throughout our star articles), is an example on our listings formatting guidelines (here and here), and is also used here. I don't think this is something worth changing, and let's get back to work? --Peter ^Talk 18:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Our policy has been to always use the American time format (AM-PM), and policies can be hard to change, but I don't think it makes sense. When a country uses the 24 hour format, in my opinion we should also for the articles that cover that country. This is useful in a very basic way, since times will be displayed in 24 hour format and will not align to what we have written. I also really dislike the argument that we should use the American format to keep from confusing Americans. First, my country is a resilient nation and should be able to handle it; second, the argument can be applied in reverse to virtually the entire rest of the world. This would also match our (finally) updated spelling policy to use local spelling in articles (throughout the English speaking world).

So I propose we use local time formats. Changing this policy does not, as has been argued above, mean that we need to spend tons of time modifying all our articles for marginal benefit. It does, however, mean that we will not have to force star nominations for destinations outside the U.S. to fit a policy that does not make sense. Objections? Agreement? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 08:54, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Just to clarify -- "local time format" means one of the two common options, right? We should also add the formatting rules for the two common options to the policy page. Given this, I support a change. -- (WT-en) Colin 11:06, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Yes and agreed. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:55, 3 September 2008 (EDT)

Objection. Let me state up front that I am a personal proponent of 24-hour time and use it myself where possible. However, I do have a problem with the proposal as stated above. First, the "confusion" principle is not as reciprocal as claimed; I can't imagine users outside North America being confused by a 12-hour time format because that's precisely what analog clocks use. Unless the rest of the world has switched entirely to 24-hour digital clocks, a 12-hour format should be perfectly intelligible. (Unfortunately, 24-hour formats still require a majority of Americans to do some mental calculation -- myself included, although I can do it very quickly.) This is important because of my second point -- I feel we should be consistent in format. It's confusing to editors to have different standards based on the location of the article's subject. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:08, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

While it's true that Americans are going to have the most trouble with this, the problem is that they ARE going to have this trouble once they get to the country. Checkin times, train timetables, flight times and everything else will be printed in 24 hour time, and so it seems to me we would actually be helping the traveller by getting them to adjust to this difficulty sooner rather than later. -- (WT-en) Colin 16:06, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

True, so I wouldn't object to mandating 24-hour format throughout the site. I just don't like having different formats on the same site. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:56, 6 October 2008 (EDT)

As I see it, there are three issues here: 1) Time formats should match local timetables, 2) 24 hour time formats may confuse Americans, 3) Formatting should be as standard as possible.

Re: 1 & 2, I think #1 outweighs #2. While Americans might have trouble dealing with a foreign time format, they'll need to figure it out anyway to deal with local train schedules and posted opening/closing times. I think it's better that our formats match those of posted schedules in the location we're writing about.

3). I don't agree that it's always desirable to have standard formatting across the entire site. After all, we do use local spelling. In addition to the aforementioned benefit of alignment with local schedules, allowing local time formats means we won't have to reformat contributions from locals who are naturally using the format most familiar to them.

We've been pushing for more local formatting over the years, from highway designations, to phone number formats, to spelling. I see no reason to make this an exception. As long as the formatting differences would not apply to an area greater than that which would be covered by a single travel guidebook, I think we should be OK. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 15:10, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

FUCK! I've been spending so much time rewriting everything to AM/PM format, because i thought it was mandated here (someone sometime changed all my times to AM/PM format at one point). GRRRRR!!!! anyway - just a rant, never mind me, I would whole heatedly support not having to the work in the future, just a damn shame I have to go over the 200+ listings i changed in Copenhagen, all over again. Talking of that, is there any particular reason none has commented on my Copenhagen/Østerbro star nomination? (WT-en) Sertmann 18:22, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

No worries, this doesn't have to be a requirement. We can put in the policy that 24hr format for non-US destinations is preferred. In any rate, I don't see such a small issue holding up a star nomination. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:39, 7 October 2008 (EDT)

Oddly, I remember the "use American English" version of the Project:Spelling page, even though it was changed back in March. I hadn't realized that policy had changed. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:20, 8 October 2008 (EDT)

I'm happy with this proposal as it stands. "When a country uses the 24 hour format, in my opinion we should also for the articles that cover that country." So we should us that more-or-less everywhere except North America.

If we decide that consistency is really important and we must limit ourselves to one format, I'd say it should obviously be the 24-hour clock used by most of the world. However, I don't think that is necessary. (WT-en) Pashley 19:56, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I think Wikivoyage should follow international guidelines most as possible. The American system is really complicated with the AM-PM-stuff (and it's cluttering too). It's even so complicated that we need to use words like noon and midnight as people don't have a clue whether it's 12AM or 12PM. And what do AM and PM even mean in the first place, I really wouldn't know. An exception could be made for the United States, but I think other countries should just use the 24-hour system. I don't know exactly how it is in the US, but I'm pretty sure most of them understand this system as well. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 20:03, 22 December 2009 (EST)

No, not really. While it's likely a majority of Americans know what 24-hour time is, they have to do a mental calculation in their head to understand a given time (between 1300 and 2359, of course). Even I, who use 24-hour time on my watch and computer, still have to do a mental translation to 12-hour time. That said, I find it hard to believe that the rest of the world finds the 12-hour clock equally baffling. You do have analog clocks, right? (WT-en) LtPowers 22:22, 22 December 2009 (EST)

Agreed. AM/PM is the way every analog clock in the world works. We can probably agree on what the commonly accepted local spelling variations are, but I doubt we can define a one correct local time format. The major English speaking countries of the world use and understand the AM/PM format, to mix it up for different articles has very little benefit, and we should avoid such parochialism anyway on an international travel site. --(WT-en) inas 00:32, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Obviously the whole world uses analog clocks, and use the 12-hour system in every day speech, but not the AM-PM-system. In my country, the Netherlands, and I think this counts for pretty much everywhere in Europe, people really don't know what AM and PM stand for or what it means. The 24-hour system is an international system, used in the whole world (except the US), now Wikivoyage hours basically are only understood by Americans. I don't see why the whole world should follow a confusing American system. That's why I think it's best to use the AM/PM-system for American articles and the international standard for the rest of the world. If we want to use the 12-hour system for the whole world, this is possible, but without AM/PM (something like "in the morning" should then be added). (WT-en) Globe-trotter 17:45, 23 December 2009 (EST)

I just don't agree. AM/PM are universally understood in the UK, in Australia, in New Zealand and in Canada. The meaning AM/PM for anyone that doesn't understand them will be in any English dictionary of any English dialect, and they are part of standard English. I'm not aware of any official standard that would make the 24-hour system more international than any other. The argument that they aren't used in the Netherlands isn't consistent with sites like Schiphol Airport , which list all their opening hours in AM/PM format. --(WT-en) inas 17:59, 23 December 2009 (EST)

I'm with Globe-trotter, I know AM/PM only because I've used it so much on Wikivoyage, before I always had to search the backstreets of my mind whether AM was after midnight or after mid-day. We never say AM or PM here, we say just say Klokken 10 and only if that can be ambiguous we say in the morning or afternoon, or just say it in 24 hour format. In written form we always use 24 hour format.

As for the Schiphol example, check the Dutch, French, Chinese and German versions - they are all in 24 hour format for the same reason.

While we both obviously make mistakes once in a while, I think it's fair to say that both of us are fairly fluent in English, I very rarely use a dictionary to write here, so I think it's a bit preposterous to question our fluency frankly. And I suspect many other non-native speakers use the English wikivoyage - we cover few languages, and the English content is leaps and bounds ahead of the languages we do cover, so I personally think it's OK to take those nationalities whose ancestors were not British subjects into consideration. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 18:14, 23 December 2009 (EST)

The main Dutch airport uses AM/PM when writing in English, and 24hr time when not writing in English. I'm merely suggesting that it is no way unreasonable that we do the same. The claim was made that AM/PM is only understood by Americans and that was the point I was refuting - not that we make a guide for ex-British colonies.

I'm also not questioning fluency, but I am strongly suggesting that AM/PM are as much part of the English language as BC/AD, or AC/DC. --(WT-en) inas 18:49, 23 December 2009 (EST)

And I'm trying to convey that AM/PM are not as much part of the English language as BC/AD, or AC/DC. The two latter are widely used in English spoken outside the old empire, while the former is not. Quick mental conversion < Dictionary. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 19:23, 23 December 2009 (EST)

A person not understanding AM/PM will have difficulty using the Japan Rail Timetables (Hyperdia). Won't understand the departure times on the Berlin Airport website, or the opening hours of the shops at Schiphol. Won't understand the 300,000+ pages that google returns in the .nl domain the use am/pm, or the 3 million pages in the .de domain. Won't understand the opening times for the museums in St Petersburg. If you want to reserve a car from CDG, and you can do it in French, then 24hr time will be fine. If you want to do it in English, you had better understand AM/PM.

Before we level the accusation at AM/PM of either being U.S. centric, or now "old-empire" centric, we really need to take issue with the millions of continental European (and other) sites that also use this format.

AM/PM is a prerequisite for navigating through and understanding English language travel websites related anywhere in the world.

Although I'd live with 24hr time being used, I'd really hate to see the site split into different usage regions - it just sends the wrong message IMO, and increases ambiguity.

Would a quick reference guide article be useful? --(WT-en) inas 20:23, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Schiphol only uses AM/PM at the English shopping page, at all the other pages (in English and other languages) it doesn't use AM/PM. Which probably has to do with KLM's alliance with Northwest Airlines. If we're using airport websites, I really did my best to find AM/PM at even one airport in the UK, Ireland, mainland Europe, Canada, and I couldn't find it on even one of them. Europeans don't understand AM/PM unless they first look it up somewhere. Maybe British would recognize it as they are culturally close to the US, but they don't regularly use it. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 00:46, 24 December 2009 (EST)

When looking at temperature, it already seems we already follow local customs. Celsius for the whole world, Fahrenheit for the US only. So I think that is also a good policy for time and date. The US is the only major country that did not adopt the metric system as seen here: . (WT-en) Globe-trotter 13:31, 28 December 2009 (EST)

But the US is not the only country that routinely uses a 12-hour clock. It seems to be primarily non-English-speaking countries that primarily use a 24-hour clock. Certainly the 12-hour clock is common in Canada and from what I understand in the UK and Australia as well. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:26, 29 December 2009 (EST)

The 12-hour clock is used everywhere, but my objections are about using AM and PM. The majority of the world has no idea what it means or what it stands for. (WT-en) globe-trotter 13:34, 29 December 2009 (EST)

And again, I really don't see why we would prefer using something that's ambiguous over something that's not. Why leave us gaspless Europeans confused if a boat leaves 8 in the morning or afternoon, when we can just write 8/20? The fact that I didn't properly learn the AM/PM system before I followed the lead of others in writing up on the Copenhagen guide, despite having travelled rather extensively to well over 30 countries, on 4 continents should despite claims of the opposite give some clue about how little the system is used in large swaths of the world - And I rely as much on my English as a native speaker when outside our borders - Danish is not really a world language you know. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 13:50, 29 December 2009 (EST)

By 12-hour clock, I mean a conceptual one with AM/PM labels, not a physical clock. In Canada, you're not going to see 24-hour times any more frequently than you do in the U.S., and it seems the same is true in other major English-speaking countries. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:58, 29 December 2009 (EST)

You don't see it that often in the UK - National Rail , National Express , British Airways , Heathrow and the Tube uses the 24 hour format for example. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 16:21, 29 December 2009 (EST)

The UK certainly uses the 24-hour system, at least in written form. I wouldn't know for the other Anglo-Saxon countries though. In Australia I see that Sydney Airport uses the am/pm system, while Melbourne Airport uses the 24-hour clock. In New Zealand ChristChurch Airport uses am/pm, while Auckland Airport uses the 24-hour system. In Canada, both Toronto and Montreal use the 24-hour clock. So at least it seems these countries are familiar with both systems. With the US as exception obviously. (WT-en) globe-trotter 07:38, 31 December 2009 (EST)

More complex time formats aren't covered yet by this policy. For days with multiple open-close times (e.g., lunch & dinner) which of the following (or some other format) should we use:

1) M-F 10AM-2PM,5PM-10PM, Sa-Su 11AM-3PM,5:30PM-10PM

2) M-F 10AM-2PM, 5PM-10PM, Sa-Su 11AM-3PM, 5:30PM-10PM

3) M-F 10AM-2PM 5PM-10PM, Sa-Su 11AM-3PM 5:30PM-10PM

And when it's more convenient to break the whole thing into categories like lunch and dinner (sometimes this can save a lot of space), should we use:

a) Lunch: 10AM-2PM daily; dinner: Su-Th 5PM-9:30PM, F-Sa 5PM-midnight

b) Lunch 10AM-2PM daily; dinner Su-Th 5PM-9:30PM, F-Sa 5PM-midnight

c) Lunch: 10AM-2PM daily, dinner: Su-Th 5PM-9:30PM, F-Sa 5PM-midnight

There are of course other possible permutations.

As with the category distinctions, I prefer to use semicolons to separate seasonal distinctions:

i) Apr-Sep M-F 10AM-2PM,5PM-10PM, Sa-Su 11AM-3PM,5:30PM-10PM; Oct-Mar M-F 10AM-2PM,5PM-10PM, Sa-Su 11AM-3PM,5:30PM-10PM

ii) Apr-Sep: M-F 10AM-2PM,5PM-10PM, Sa-Su 11AM-3PM,5:30PM-10PM; Oct-Mar: M-F 10AM-2PM,5PM-10PM, Sa-Su 11AM-3PM,5:30PM-10PM

Thoughts? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:48, 30 November 2009 (EST)

First: 2), with the caveats that a semicolon be used between "10PM" and "Sa" and that a space be used between "Sa" and "Su" (as recommended in this guideline). Second: b), these things are long enough; we should eliminate unnecessary characters. (One could even make an argument that the labels are unnecessary; simply "10AM-2PM daily; Su-Th 5PM-9:30PM, F-Sa 5PM-midnight" gets the point across, doesn't it? That's what I've been doing on the Walt Disney World articles (cf. Walt Disney World/Epcot#Eat).) Third: i) for similar reasons. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:49, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I don't think we should be using a semicolon there, as that would conflict with the way we present our information in other ways, e.g., "M-Th 5PM-2AM, F-Su 5PM-3AM" or in the ways shown in the second and third cases above. That is, we should use semicolons for changes in category (lunch/dinner or season, in these cases), not changes in day.

Regarding the current advice to leave out the dash between a pair of days—I think we should change that. While I see the point of using a space when a day falls outside of a set range (e.g., T Th-Sa), Sa-Su is just as much an unbroken range as F-Su, and it looks better to my mind to keep that distinction visible in the display format. And judging from my time patrolling articles, I think "F-Sa" is much more common than "F Sa".

Otherwise, I agree with your points. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:28, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I can see the argument for not using a semicolon, but using a comma produces ambiguity. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:07, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I agree with removing using the dash when the days are consecutive. It uses no more characters, and saves a few brain processing cycles to understand. I agree with (WT-en) LtPowers that 2) looks best, but that a semi-colon looks better than a comma. I understand that breaks the later construction with categories. Perhaps we could consider a fullstop to terminate each category instead of a semi-colon? --(WT-en) inas 18:05, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I'm happy to cave on the issue of dashes between consecutive days. I still don't agree with the semicolon idea, though. Semicolons in lists are supposed to be used only to reduce ambiguity, and I don't recognize what ambiguity you are seeing there. Mixing in commas, semicolons, and periods into what is just a list of hours seems too baroque. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 02:34, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Consider a (hypothetical and admittedly slightly contrived) establishment open for lunch five days a week but for dinner only on Fridays. That could present as "M-Th 10AM-3PM, F 10AM-2PM, 4PM-8PM". It's not clear whether the final clause "4PM-8PM" applies only to Friday or if it's a daily thing. (Sure, if the reader is familiar with our standards, they know that the latter situation would be designated by saying "daily 4PM-8PM", but our standards should not require familiarity with them in order to be deciphered.) Is this a common situation? No, but it's got me concerned enough that I can't fully support using only commas. But as I said, I also see your point with the semicolon. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:08, 3 December 2009 (EST)

That case to me looks like a good case to use a category name: M-Th 10AM-3PM, F 10AM-2PM; dinner: F 4PM-8PM. It's a little longer, but a lot clearer and wouldn't force us into more complex formatting for other more simple (and more common) hours lists. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 13:57, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Firstly, Apologies for my typo above. I'm happy with the dash. Secondly, I don't really see why M-F 10AM-2PM, 5PM-7PM;Sa-Su 9AM-2PM, 4PM-8PM qualifies as too baroque, it just seems clearer to me. Apr-Sep: M-F 10AM-2PM, 5PM-7PM;Sa-Su 9AM-2PM, 4PM-8PM. Oct-Mar: M-F 10AM-4PM, 5PM-10PM;Sa-Su 9AM-10PM. is a rule that can be stated clearly, is easily parseable, and avoids using commas for two different things. In the examples above where you use commas to separate days and times, I have to look back along the line very carefully to figure out when the thing is open. --(WT-en) inas 17:46, 3 December 2009 (EST)

And I should say these are just my suggestions as to what I think works best. I'm certainly don't feel strongly enough to obstruct any consensus developing in another direction.. --(WT-en) inas 20:09, 3 December 2009 (EST)

At the risk of resurrecting an ancient thread, I have just been entering listings for Bolognese restaurants which frequently open for lunch, close, then open for dinner, at times that differ by day of week. Some good standard for this case would be helpful. The best I've done has been, "Summer Tu–Th 12:30–14:30, 19:30–22:30; F Sa 12:30–14:30, 19:30–23:30; Su 11:00–15:00; M closed; closed August; winter hours differ.". That is:, within a day, separate time ranges by commas; separate days by semicolons. JimDeLaHunt (talk) 13:54, 19 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

I think that your format is clear, and consistent with WV:TDF as it has developed since this discussion wound down a decade ago. Ground Zero (talk) 16:27, 19 November 2019 (UTC)Reply

Abbreviating the four-letter months is pretty eccentric, I think, and I haven't noticed anyone doing that. Would anyone mind if I change this? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:49, 20 December 2009 (EST)

Are you saying that all the months should be abbreviated to three letters, except June and July which should be spelt out in full? --(WT-en) inas 18:58, 20 December 2009 (EST)

Yes, sorry for not being clearer above. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 19:01, 20 December 2009 (EST)

I disagree; Jun and Jul are pretty standard TLAs. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:21, 20 December 2009 (EST)

A couple of strategic google searches over WT would seem to indicate that when TLAs are used for the other months, more often than not Jun and Jul are used also. --(WT-en) inas 23:06, 20 December 2009 (EST)

Jan-Mar,Apr-June,July-Sep looks silly metinks. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 19:30, 23 December 2009 (EST)

I'd stick with Jun and Jul for consistency. Otherwise "Sept" will creep in and we'll be heading for confusion. --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 08:45, 7 May 2011 (EDT)

We know our date format is 10 Jul 2011, but what if we put the date without a year? Should I assume that it follows that we would just say 10 Jul? It seems more natural to me to say Jul 10. --(WT-en) inas 19:53, 23 May 2010 (EDT)

It could be confused and read as July 2010. --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 11:18, 7 May 2011 (EDT)

I see from the above discussion that there is no strong consensus in the AM/am/a.m. debate. I happen to prefer "am" because it's short and less obtrusive (capitals look like we're SHOUTING as they say). My precedent is the worldwide Michelin travel guides that also use this format. So if I go with "am" will that be an acceptable alternative or will I spark a huge edit war? --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 08:39, 7 May 2011 (EDT)

You won't start an edit war unless you insist on your format when someone comes in and changes it. The problem is that we like consistency, and we've been using AM and PM for many years now. We could, in theory, switch to 'am' and 'pm', but we'd have to switch site-wide, and it's just not worth the trouble. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:40, 7 May 2011 (EDT)

Is there an accepted abbreviation for "public holidays". If not, do we want one? The Michelin guide spells it out. --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 11:15, 7 May 2011 (EDT)

For the 24hr time format, should we always use four digits, e.g., write 09:00 instead of 9:00? I was using just three, but realized that looked confusing when the opening hours for a cafe were 13:00-4:00. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:03, 12 July 2011 (EDT)

I'm with you; I thought 3 digits would be enough, but that example does look weird. Can we say 4 digits are optional if it makes things look better? (WT-en) LtPowers 18:59, 12 July 2011 (EDT)

Works for me. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 19:40, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

~Usually 4 digits are used, so I think that would be best used site-wide. --(WT-en) globe-trotter 21:09, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

That was not my impression from the discussion above. I could be wrong, though; I've never left North America. (WT-en) LtPowers 22:15, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

I would agree with GT that using four digits across the board is by far the most common 24 hr time format. It would be simplest for WT to use that standard.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:27, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

Works for me. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:47, 15 July 2011 (EDT)

I don't know about elsewhere but it is common in Germany to use 2 digits e.g. "9 - 16 Uhr" which translates as "9 - 16 hrs". Depends how much we want to give precedence to local usage that tourists will see on shops, in brochures, etc. --(WT-en) SaxonWarrior 03:56, 16 July 2011 (EDT)

By using 4 digits, it assures the reader the writer really does in fact mean 09:00 and removes the need to add "AM" or "PM." There's a reason 4 digits are used -- it's impossible to misunderstand. (WT-en) Zepppep 09:15, 27 February 2012 (EST)

Swept in from the pub

I was a bit confused by this edit. Did we switch to three-letter abbreviations for days of the week? Project:Abbreviations and Project:Time and date formats give no indication of this. (WT-en) Eco84 12:00, 4 October 2011 (EDT)

No, you are correct--they should be one or two letters, per the policies you linked. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:02, 4 October 2011 (EDT)

My apologies. Apparently my brain has confounded weekday abbreviations with our policy of 3-letter month abbreviations. Either that or I've simply been doing it wrong for years and never had it pointed out to me. Lesson learned! (WT-en) texugo 00:10, 5 October 2011 (EDT)

I don't see any discussion above about the abbreviation for dates. Any particular reason for using M Tu W Th F Sa Su? I'm with Texugo in that I've been doing it wrong for a long time. My preference is 3-letter days. No particular reason, other that it just looks better. However, changing to 3-letter format would match the months and they wouldn't be different lengths. For some reason, a date range like Th-Sa or W-Su doesn't look as nice as Thu-Sat or Wed-Sun. What does eveyone else think?

"Leave the dash out for a pair of days, e.g., Sa Su not Sa-Su." To me a backslash looks better than just a space or hyphen. So a business' hours written as "Mon/Wed 8AM-5PM; Tues/Thu 10AM-7PM; Fri/Sat 10AM-10PM" looks better to me than "M W 8AM-5PM; Tu Th 10AM-7PM; F Sa 10AM-10PM". I also do not see a policy on separating the hours on different dates. I used a semi-colon in the example because it's my preference and leaves a comma to separate hours on the same day(s). For example, a restaurant only open for lunch & dinner may be: "Mon-Thu 11AM-2PM, 5PM-10PM; Fri-Sat 11AM-2PM, 4PM-11PM" AHeneen (talk) 04:51, 15 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

And I think we could use a bot to clean up the format in listings which use the attractions/activities/eat/sleep/buy templates. Would it be terribly difficult to create something that goes through the text in the parentheses in hours section of these templates, switching when appropriate, and flagging listings which are ambiguous ("S" or the hours can't be recognized because of lack of AM/PM...like 8-10). Not a tech person that can do this, but it seems reasonably simple...especially if problem ones are just flagged for review (for us people to check) or just left alone. AHeneen (talk) 04:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

You've raised a lot of different issues here, so it's hard to reply to them. For the abbreviations, I'm fairly certain the formats were chosen to be as compact as possible. I'm sorry you don't like them, but is it really worth going through all 25,000 travel guides to change them? LtPowers (talk) 13:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

I believe Wikitravel uses EST (Eastern Standard Time - N America) and Eastern Daylight Time (EDT) in Summer for signature timestamps and logs and Wikivoyage uses CEST (Central European Summer Time) and then, in some weeks time from now (presumably), CET (Central European Time).

Since most time zones measure their time offset from Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), perhaps this is a good time to prepare for our upcoming move to the Wikimedia Foundation and change to using UTC and the 24 hour clock (as used by most of the world (except for N. America) for timetables, etc., ? --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 02:39, 20 September 2012 (CEST)

I'm afraid it seems to be a little bit more complex than that.

As far as I know Wikimedia (meta.wikimedia.org), Wikitravel and Wikivoyage all use the same MediaWiki softwares to run their respective sites. When logged on to Wikimedia I already had my Date and time preferences set to the "Europe/Isle of Man" (nearest geo-location to Glasgow in same time zone) choice with (,currently,) a +1 hour time offset from UTC and this works as expected. When logged on to Wikitravel it's the same. Although the logs (for, example of "recent changes") adjust to my time and date preferences, the signature date stamps don't in both "Blue tick and "Red tick" versions of Wikivoyage and this thumbnail (click it to expand the image) illustrates THREE different time stamps (after the time of the import): --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 22:50, 20 September 2012 (CEST)

It's not really a high priority issue I think. Once we move to the Wikimedia servers, I think UTC will be used. --Globe-trotter (talk) 23:46, 20 September 2012 (CEST)

I do hope so - together with the 24 hour clock within non-USA travel articles. --W. Frank^e-mail_talk 23:50, 20 September 2012 (CEST)

Well, the great hyphen/dash debate has migrated to Wikivoyage. Thanks bunches, Tony.

Let me make clear that I'm a strong proponent of using dashes appropriately -- for numerical ranges, in particular. And in prose we usually use dashes (or change hyphens to dashes if we're doing other copyediting; we don't bother editing if the hyphen is the only problem). But in listings, we almost always use hyphens.

Historically, that may have been because WT's listing editor didn't allow dashes to be entered easily. But we don't have a listing editor here, so is that concern obviated? -- LtPowers (talk) 15:02, 13 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think this is a case to paraphrase the advice currently given at Abbrev: Editors may want to choose to use a more elegant en dash rather than a hyphen. However, don't knock yourself out "correcting" one to the other - there is more important work to be done in plunging forward and writing the World's most complete and accurate free Travel Guide!

There is also the trivial point that, if the en dash is enshrined in our MoS, we should still discourage the insertion of constructions like "–" and "–" for the same reasons we discourage the use of raw HTML (where alternatives exist).

Finally, it should go without saying that the use of one rather than the other should not usually be a reason for failing to promote an article to, or demoting an article from, Star status.

I bet all those Mac users will be feeling superior... -- Alice^✉ 19:59, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

• I'd be disinclined to insert gratuitous advice based on personal takes, like all of the italicised bits: "Editors may want to choose to use a more elegant en dash rather than a hyphen. However, don't knock yourself out "correcting" one to the other - there is more important work to be done in plunging forward and writing the World's most complete and accurate free Travel Guide! Tony (talk) 23:45, 13 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

See, to me that reads like the most important information on the page. --Inas (talk) 00:46, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I suppose it depends on whether one is more interested in typography or in travel. LtPowers (talk) 02:25, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I believe we should be interested in travel and typography. An authoritative website, a compendium of the most valuable and up-to-date information from people on the ground, can be a mishmash, but the advantage of a wiki is that some editors like to go around fixing things up from time to time. Editors should be encouraged by guidelines to use professional language; not gratuitously advised not to "knock themselves around", and professional writing put down by "there is more important work to be done". That is the height of amateurism. Tony (talk) 06:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We can, of course, value both without valuing them equally. I think you'll find that while grammar tweaks are welcome, especially for articles angling for a star nomination, in general we'd much rather people put time into adding travel information than methodically changing one punctuation mark to another. LtPowers (talk) 14:00, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's an opinion I'd prefer did not take hold on a site that should be encouraging high standards of language and presentation. Luckily, you don't get your way at en.WP on that score; please don't discourage people from making the text of en.voy more readable (and consistent with all the major English-language style guides). You want hard-copy travel guides to look better than ours? No thanks. Tony (talk) 14:22, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

First of all, this isn't about me. I'm a wikignome at heart, and I strive for accuracy in my own writing. I don't know what you're going on about with en.WP; we may disagree on a few of the finer points of usage, but I share your dedication to proper style and grammar. (If we differ, it's in zealousness and passion.) That's irrelevant here. I'm just telling you how the English Wikivoyage community is going to react, not expressing my personal opinion. LtPowers (talk) 15:12, 14 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm not going to revert the changes suggesting that we use en dashes instead of hyphens as long as it's understood that this is a suggestion. They are not easy for everyone to type, but more importantly, going back and trying to change the endless hours fields in listings on this site from hyphens to en dashes would be a really ridiculous waste of time. --Peter ^Talk 04:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's what bots are made for.

I'm far more concerned about our current longstanding advice at HTML. Is that policy now redundant and we can start sprinkling such HTML as "–" willy-nilly? I thought we wanted to encourage a new cohort of casual, but locally knowledgeable editors. On my (small) screen, I can not even SEE the difference between an en dash and a hyphen! -- Alice^✉ 04:49, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

The advice is still in effect, but it's nothing set in stone. We want to have content; the exact form that content takes can always be adjusted later. LtPowers (talk) 13:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

There's an en dash button just under everyone's edit box, if they don't have one on their keyboard. Since the character is essential for proper writing in English, it's often a good option to make a macro on one's computer. But either way, dashes are integral to producing good readable information involving time, day, and date ranges – not to mention the common interruptor within sentences. Nowadays it's not really acceptable to put squidgy hyphens in for that purpose. Tony (talk) 23:39, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Should it be "Daily 24 hours" or "24 hours daily"? The former reflects our normal usage (days of week followed by hours), so I think that should be the preference. LtPowers (talk) 14:53, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Daily 24 hours is certainly preferable to the second option; but is there any reason that 24/7 can't be a stated option, too? Tony (talk) 14:56, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I believe the concern is that it may be a colloquialism not widely understood in all quarters. LtPowers (talk) 15:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's odd. I see 318 million results for 24/7 on a quick google search. I see fewer than 9 million results for each of 24 hours daily and daily 24 hours (quotes to find that exact string). Is anyone contending that 24/7 is not just about universally understood? And that it's not neater and more readily recognisable on a small mobile device by travellers huddled around a fireplace in a dense jungle? Tony (talk) 02:52, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

LTPowers: Neither. I made a mistake. The 6 year consensus I saw was for just 24 hours but my correction was reverted by the original proposer.

Tony: I have a slight personal preference for 24 hours over 24/7, especially in our current listing format, since it's clearer on small screens and for non-native speakers. -- Alice^✉ 06:52, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

I refer to two threads above concerning the formatting of 12-hour times, and the failure to gain consensus for what you'd think would be a simple and necessary reform. Regrettably, I'm seeing "it's not worth the bother/trouble" rather too often on these pages. But the business of optimising a wiki—especially one that now is able to use the world's most powerful and prestigious non-commercial free-information trademark—does involve continually improving our standards to world's best practice in English. This is not a rod for anyone's back: the advantage of a wiki lies in allowing visitors and occasional regulars to add as they please, but to gnome through pages to harmonise according to house style; it's a never-ending job, but well worth pursuing if we're to compete for top spot as a source of travel-related information on the internet.

As an example, let me say immediately that from the very first time I consulted a WV article, the eye-poking AM and PM stuck out as non-standard (minority) usage and, frankly, disruptive and ugly. Worse, they're jammed up against the just-as-important numeral, making it unnecessarily difficult to parse. I propose that we have a debate about at least making am and pm an option, provided there is within-article consistency. The debate would need to cover whether am and pm should be spaced or closed, dotted or undotted, and capped or downcased, and whether in each case the policy should make a unitary choice or present two options. On en.WP they insist on a space and lower case, while dots are optional provided they're consistently applied in an article. (In my own country, Australia, am/pm are closed, undotted, and downcased in normal prose, but Australian editors at en.WP have come to accept compliance with the wider practice in the English-speaking world of spacing the elements.)

I see an argument above that signage typically uses caps for AM and PM; this is no doubt true, but signage all over the world uses caps much more liberally than is acceptable in running prose, for very good reasons, so this is not relevant to the reading experience in en.WV.

As a related aside, I don't see enough about within-article consistency more generally as a principle at en.WV. Allowing more than one option sometimes makes things a lot easier with minimal sacrifice of stylistic cohesion on the site; this has been pretty well managed on en.WP, in my experience—e.g. two options for interrupting dashes – are permissible; and the flexible approach that was hammered out years ago on variety of English, amazingly, is now well accepted in the community. Tony (talk) 06:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

You're not wrong.

However, my preference would be to do as we currently do with US English (ie it is the default variety of English on WV where there is not another national variety of English that has a closer connection to the article): choose the 24 hour format as the default time display format (as per the time stamp in all our signatures), but allow alternatives for articles that have a close connection with localities where the traveller will almost always encounter a different format eg: Ethiopia and the US. -- Alice^✉ 07:02, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Alice, how does that relate to the am/pm formatting issue? Tony (talk) 09:00, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

At least two ways:

1) There would be a lot fewer articles with the "Eye-poking AMs and PMs" because fewer articles would not use the (new) default of the 24 hour format.

2) There would be a lot fewer articles with the "Eye-poking AMs and PMs" because those fewer articles still using the (minority) 12 hour system could choose which style was more locally prevalent: am/pm or AM/PM -- Alice^✉ 09:06, 19 January 2013 (UTC)

Sounds excellent. Tony (talk) 09:15, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sounds to me like we are back to #Triple consensus? above. Repeating it here:

• use 24-hour clock except in North America
• replace "AM" with "am" when using 12-hour clock
• use three-letter abbreviations for days of the week, for easier reading

The only difference is that then we did not have consensus that the change was worth the trouble. Now we do, so we should just implement it. Pashley (talk) 17:56, 25 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'd prefer to go a bit further, suggest 24-hour time formats everywhere with a rider that am/pm may be used in North America rather than saying they should be used. However, I'm happy with the compromise above. Pashley (talk) 18:03, 25 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Why just North America? Are we certain that nowhere else in the world uses wall clocks? And where the heck did the three-letter days of the week thing come from? If we're worried about length, we should stick with M Tu W Th F Sa Su. LtPowers (talk) 18:19, 25 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Agree with LtPowers on both points. I also don't like using may - I think this just increases the chance of edit wars over what format to use. -Shaundd (talk) 18:22, 25 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Can we have views from US editors about this? I guess American contributors who travel outside their country will inevitably be exposed to the 24-hour format; but American readers who consult WV for the purpose of tourist within the US might be befuddled. To what extent is this an issue for WV? And do US airports, coach stations, railways, use 24-hour format in their signage, ever? Tony (talk) 02:47, 26 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

In Canada (which also predominantly uses the 12 hour clock), the airlines and VIA Rail use the 24 hour format. The bus lines I checked, including Greyhound (the national bus service), use the 12 hour format. In Vancouver, where I live, the local ferries and public transit system all use the 12 hour format. The same goes for shop signs. If you call a restaurant to make a reservation, you'll be offered times in AM/PM. The same if you call and ask when a shop or attraction closes. I'm sure you could use 24 hour format, but it's not the common local usage by any means. I can't speak to whether this is the case all across Canada and the US, but I certainly don't recall seeing many signs or hearing times quoted in the 24 hour clock when I've travelled back east or down to the States. The only exception I can think of is Quebec. I haven't been there for years, but I think the 24 hour format is more common there than the rest of the country (it would be good if someone could confirm that). -Shaundd (talk) 03:54, 26 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

An intercity bus schedule between Ottawa-Montréal-Toronto was 24-hour format, last I checked (ages ago). The French-language format is more likely to be 24, formatted as "17h00" instead of "17:00" or "5:00 PM ET". Ferry schedule looks to be 12 . Hospitals, military, meteorology, intercity transport likely all 24h as it leaves less room for error, but they're the exceptions. City bus schedule would be 12h. K7L (talk) 05:17, 26 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'll have to go through the above discussion and write my opinion later (not enough time right now). As a quick answer to your question...NO! I have never seen 24-hour time used in the U.S., except a handful of science-related things (in print, not spoken), like the official time of an event(eg. weather-related warnings or earthquakes, where it is used in conjunction with 12-hour time). An example: "At 1000 AM CDT...1500 UTC...the center of Tropical Storm Debby was located near..."

Just about the only Americans who would be familiar with it are people who have traveled to countries using 24-hour clocks and anyone who has been in the military—in fact, 24-hour time is known to most Americans as "military time" because that's the only common use (but with differences...the military always says the leading zero & omits the colon...so it's "zero five hundred hours" or 0500, not "five o'clock" or 5:00). There may be a few jobs/industries where 24-hour time is used, like shipping or in manufacturing, but the vast majority of the general public is not exposed to use of the 24-hour clock. The 24-hour clock is (to the best of my knowledge) only used in special or behind-the-scenes uses (for astronomy & some scientific data, military, some software), but definitely not (or almost never) in public use. To best honest, use of the 24-hour clock is even rarer than use of metric/SI in the U.S.! Businesses & transit systems use AM/PM (or rarely A/P). Just looked at an old boarding pass of mine and it states departure as "903A" & I have a bus pass that reads "3:38PM". The policy should be that all times listed in the U.S. must use the 12-hour clock, not "should" or "may" use it. I can't speak for the rest of North America. AHeneen (talk) 04:26, 26 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I get the feeling that the page might say something like: "12-hour format is usual for North America, except for Quebec, where the 24-hour format is often used." Do you want to be strict or leave room for editorial judgement? I'm unsure. Tony (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Well, I don't know whether Mexico & Central America also use a 12-hour clock. My suggestion for the policy would be: "Use the 12-hour clock for times given in the U.S. & Canada. In cases where local transit and/or businesses use the 24-hour clock, list both formats as 12-hour time (24-hour time); eg. Buses operate from 5AM-11PM (05:00-23:00) Monday-Thursday." That should be a clear, reasonable way of allowing exceptions for Quebec, but still accommodate the large numbers of visitors from other areas. I was going to write "except in cases where local transit and/or businesses use the 24-hour clock", but that could lead to cases where transit times are given in 24-hour format & business hours are a mix of 12/24-hour times. Stating that 12-hour time should still be used followed by 24-hour time in parentheses seems like an easier way of keeping formatting consistent, while accommodating local variations. AHeneen (talk) 18:32, 26 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I do not think we need to include conversions between 24 hour and 12 hour time notations. That would be silly and unnecessarily lengthen our guide (which is a real issue to some people concerned about printed versions). If there really are human beings out there that can not subtract or add 12 hours by themselves, I seriously wonder whether we should encourage them to travel internationally without minders.

I also need to state the obvious: that, in almost all varieties of spoken English, the basically 12 hour system of "see you at 8 o'clock" is used colloquially. That doesn't usually mean (except in the case of the US we are continually told here) that timetables printed in 24 hour format will present an insuperable hurdle. Obviously there may be some destinations where completely different time systems are used and conversions would be helpful (Ethiopia, for example), but generally I would be completely opposed to conversions being used for either 12 or 24 hour notations and certainly they should not be mandated in our MoS.

Personally, I am strongly in favour of a modification of Sandy's formulation: Use the 24-hour time format. As an alternative, a 12 hour, am/pm format may be used consistently in any destination article where the 24 hour format is very rarely seen in print locally.

I agree with LtPowers: "If we're worried about length, we should stick with M Tu W Th F Sa Su." and not change our policy there.

Finally, we may need to distinguish between establishments that never close (eg: Las Vegas casinos), where I suggest 24/7 should be our pleasingly compact recognised abbreviation, and locations that may be open 24 hours on certain days (eg: supermarkets) where we could write "M-W 07:00–21:00, Th 07:00–23:59, F-Sa 24 hours, Su 00:00–19:00" -- Alice^✉ 23:37, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

This discussion is heading a bit in the wrong direction. I don't think anyone opposes the use of the AM/PM-system in the United States and Canada. It's the other places in the world where it's more tricky to determine which system they use. Globe-trotter (talk) 04:51, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Australia is almost completely within the am/pm system. I really don't like using a different system just for North America. I also find the possibility of having to use both a bit over-the-top. If this issue is really significant, I think we should switch to 24-hour times. People travelling have to understand them anyway, so it isn't that much of an ordeal. Otherwise, I say we can just leave it as it is. I don't really desire the amount of discussion this is going to require to settle a position for each article. --Inas (talk) 05:21, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I see 24-hour format on railway station electronic signs in Sydney, and on the highway approaching Sydney airport. Nevertheless, most usage is 12-hour format in Australia (and New Zealand). I don't see any big deal, and don't think the issue should be forced either way for articles related to those countries. North America seems more likely to need 12-hour format. But we're not going to be iron-clad prescriptive about which one anywhere, surely ....? I think as long as articles are internally consistent, and the tendency for 12-hour in Nth America is clear, that's enough. And yes, I do think forcing 24-hour format is not a good idea given the wider picture (although personally I'd prefer it). Tony (talk) 07:28, 1 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Fellow editors, I'm unsure whether to go ahead with the changes I proposed above for the first section, "Times", including the tweaks I made to them on the basis of feedback in the thread.

Also, am I right in assuming that the last three sections concern abbreviations? Could I suggest that there be a single second-level heading, "Abbreviations", with anything else sequestered into "Other matters", or something like that? "Duration" is a bit vague as a heading, in this respect.

And a few queries for feedback from you, please:

• "Abbreviate to the minimum number of letters, ie: M Tu W Th F Sa Su in lists and where space is short." The minimum would be a single letter. Needs rephrasing, I think.
• "Spaces should be left out, e.g., M–F not M – F or M thru F." But the last example isn't about spacing. I can probably think of a way around this wording.
• "Omit the en dash for a pair of days, e.g., Sa Su not Sa–Su." Substantive issue—my only one here: "Sa Su" is a bit strange by itself, isn't it? Surely "Sa and Su". Can people advise?

Tony (talk) 15:04, 8 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

The minimum is not always a single letter because T could be Tuesday or Thursday, and S could be Saturday or Sunday. I think that part is pretty clear.

Re:Spaces - I think that could be split into two items, one about use of the dash rather than the words "through", "to", "thru", etc., and the other regarding spacing around the dash.

Re:Sa Su - Personally, I think it should have a dash between them, since it is a bit strange as you said, and since using an "and" would not really harmonize with the other guidelines...

Texugo (talk) 15:50, 8 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Texugo that "and" is inconsistent (and too long, we're principally talking about use in listings and usage there should be kept short) and that there should be a dash between consecutive days for the sake of clarity. "Su M" causes many people to pause unnecessarily -- Alice^✉ 18:14, 8 March 2013 (UTC)!

Sa-Su is clearer than Sa Su and takes up no more space, and "Sa Su" does look weird. We've actually discussed this before, and you'll find the Sa-Su version throughout our star articles. I've plunged and changed the policy, revert if need be. --Peter ^Talk 19:22, 8 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

Using a hyphen (or dash) between two consecutive days makes no sense, as the punctuation implies a range. "Sa Su" should be treated no differently from "M W F". I've reverted the change (in part because you only changed "omit" to "use" without changing the example to match). LtPowers (talk) 03:01, 9 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I may have misread your comments above. I agree with Inas' assessment that putting the dash in there "saves a few brain processing cycles to understand." I've been using it in my writing here for the past 7 years. (I think you have been too—both in the examples from that section, and in articles you have worked on like Rochester.) --Peter ^Talk 03:20, 9 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I have not; I've been following the cogent advice presented on this page until it was changed. Eco84 tried added the hyphens between "Sa" and "Su" (and, inexplicably, commas between non-consecutive days!). I reverted the commas, but I missed all but one of the hyphens. If not for Eco84's completely non-MOS-compliant changes, Rochester (New York) would not have "Sa-Su" present in the article. It's true I did use "F-Sa" in the discussion you linked, but in that case I was just quoting you; I probably copy+pasted it. I still don't see any reason to treat "Sa Su" or "F Sa" any differently than we do "M W F" or "Tu Th". LtPowers (talk) 15:53, 9 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't think putting a comma between single or double letter abbreviations of the days of the week is "inexplicable". Whenever there is a list of items, writers in English separate them with commas and it also saves a few brain cycles in a concise listing puzzling over what accronym or shortening "M W F" may possibly be - Mean high Water mark Fundy?

The only real question for me is whether to separate the non-consecutive days of the week abbreviations with just a comma - or a comma and then an ordinary space.

I think we need to fundamentally decide whether we are going to have our own policies about this MoS stuff or just refer editors to the more comprehensive (and often more ambiguous and flexible) set at Wikipedia's Manual of Style. If we wish to preserve our own distinct tone then we probably should plump for the former. But, in that case, we need to be a little bit more comprehensive and less ambiguous. For example, we currently have no advice about year letters - so I've prepared this User:Alice/Kitchen/tdf -- Alice^✉ 20:57, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

In my view, en.WVoy needs its own set of style guidelines, but there's nothing wrong with borrowing from en.WP in instances where it's convenient and appropriate. Thing is, the linguistic register, the tenor of WVoy articles is different from that of en.WP articles, both in fundamental ways (involving the use of contractions, for example; specific abbreviations, unique article structure, referencing, and many more aspects). WVoy has a significantly different social purpose from other WMF sites, and its stylistic conventions should reflect this. Tony (talk) 01:08, 10 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's inexplicable, Alice, because our MoS had never recommended commas, nor had they been in widespread use anywhere else on the site. If Eco84 had been adding new listings, it might be understandable, but Eco84 specifically changed formatting that matched the MoS to formatting that did not. That's what was (and is, to me) inexplicable. LtPowers (talk) 14:16, 10 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Powers, a hyphen indicates a range: M-F, ie M through F. Sa Su is not a range, we do not say "Sa through Su", so should not hyphenate that. We do say "Sa and Su", so we could write "Sa, Su 9-5PM", but don't because "Sa Su 9-5PM" is shorter and works fine. These issues come clear in context, which is generally open hours in venue listings I think. For clarity, our range notation should be different from our list notation; hence a space for list notation (Sa Su) but a hyphen for range notation (M-F). A clear concise and consistent style to indicate open hours is the goal here and our long standing style does it well. Reword the manual for clarity sure, but no change to this style needed. Did I miss something? --Rogerhc (talk) 06:29, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I probably shouldn't get involved in this conversation, as I seem to disagree with everyone. I hate the usage of M-Th. It doesn't make any sense to me, and some viewers are certain to get confused. Does saying Mon-Thu really add that much space? If we were that damn concerned about space, we should mandate "&" instead of "and" (saves 2 characters) and other idiocies. At least Mon-Thu will avoid confusion. I know we don't copy what competitors do, but the internationally renowned Lonely Planet used Mon-Thu style, and I don't believe they have serious issues of space. I could only accept M-Th style if listings were to have a label like "Hours:" or a clock symbol so it is clear to viewers we are talking about days and times (but that would be adding up to an extra 6 characters; blasphemy!) JamesA ^>talk 06:49, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

How about using a slash for discontiguous days and two consecutive days; eg. "M/W/F 8AM-5PM" or "F/Sa noon-1AM"? With regards to using a comma, I need to raise an important issue not addressed on this page: what to do when there are separate time periods on given days. For example, a restaurant is only open for lunch and dinner and is closed in the afternoon. In this case I have used the comma—"M-F 11AM-2PM, 5PM-10PM"—and then used a semicolon to separate days—"M-Th 11AM-2PM, 5PM-10PM; F/Sa 11AM-11PM; Su 10AM-3PM" or "M/W 8AM-noon, 2PM-5PM; Tu/Th 8AM-noon, 2PM-8PM; Sa 10AM-10PM". What do you all think about such usage of the slash, comma, and semicolon in formatting date/time listings? Re:James...the policy is about consistency, just like all WV policies. I personally like 3-letter abbreviations, however M/Tu/W/Th/F/Sa/Su has long been the established convention and we're just working other formatting issues around that. AHeneen (talk) 07:05, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I find the slash is sometimes hard to read depending on font and surrounding letters, but if it would increase clarity it might be worth it. I guess I don't understand what's unclear about the current format. Your use of semicolons and commas, Andrew, appears standard to me. LtPowers (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I guess because spaces serve to separate words in a sentence, and listing days isn't a sentence. Slashes replace the word "or", which works. "M/W/Sa" would translate to "You can visit the museum on Monday, Wednesday or Saturday". JamesA ^>talk 13:34, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

A slash and a space are both difficult ways of conveying the intending meaning: a slash typically means either/or; a space is unclear on all counts. And I agree with LtPowers that the dash, which indicates a range, is inappropriate for two contiguous days. Why not a comma or plain and? Thus far we have:

Sa Su 9–5pm

Sa/Su 9–5pm

Sa–Su 9–5pm

Sa, Su 9–5pm

Sa and Su 9–5pm

Sa & Su 9–5pm.

They're the only options I can think of. Tony (talk) 14:52, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

As I mentioned above, I've used the comma to separate two periods of time on the same days. For example a small post office is closed in the middle of the day, so it's hours in listings would be: "M-F 8AM-11AM, 2PM-5PM". A tour operator has boat/gondola tours throughout the day, but at different times on different days. Which style would look best:

1. M, W 9AM, 2:30PM; Tu, Th 9AM, 2:30PM, 5PM; F, Sa 9AM, noon, 2:30PM, 5PM, 8PM (comma for days and times)
2. M W 9AM, 2:30PM; Tu Th 9AM, 2:30PM, 5PM; F Sa 9AM, noon, 2:30PM, 5PM, 8PM (space for days, commas for times)
3. M and W 9AM, 2:30PM; Tu and Th 9AM, 2:30PM, 5PM; F and Sa 9AM, noon, 2:30PM, 5PM, 8PM ("and" for days, commas for times)
4. M & W 9AM, 2:30PM; Tu & Th 9AM, 2:30PM, 5PM; F & Sa 9AM, noon, 2:30PM, 5PM, 8PM (ampersand for days, commas for times)
5. M & W 9AM 2:30PM; Tu & Th 9AM 2:30PM 5PM; F & Sa 9AM noon 2:30PM 5PM 8PM (ampersand for days, space for times)
6. M&W 9AM 2:30PM; Tu&Th 9AM 2:30PM 5PM; F&Sa 9AM noon 2:30PM 5PM 8PM (ampersand with no spaces for days, space for times)
7. M/W 9AM, 2:30PM; Tu/Th 9AM, 2:30PM, 5PM; F/Sa 9AM, noon, 2:30PM, 5PM, 8PM (slash for days, commas for times)
8. M/W 9AM 2:30PM; Tu/Th 9AM 2:30PM 5PM; F/Sa 9AM noon 2:30PM 5PM 8PM (slash for days, space for times)

My preference just so happens to be the way I've handled such cases...#8...slash for two consecutive days or discontiguous days, commas to separate separate time periods, and semicolon to separate different day & time combinations. In keeping with the idea that this policy is to keep the length of dates & time in listings to a minimum, the slash is a great choice because it is: 1) shorter than using a comma, "and", or the ampersand; 2) more distinct/legible than a comma or ampersand when the spaces are removed around them (ie. M/W vs M,W vs M&W); 3) saves the comma to be used for separating time periods (unless there's a better way of separating times, unless "M, W 8AM-11AM, 1PM-5PM" is ok); and 4) in my opinion works for both discontiguous days and two consecutive (M/W & Sa/Su vs M, W & Sa, Su vs M/W & Sa-Su). While the slash may typically mean "either" or "or", in this usage I highly doubt many people will think "M/W 8AM-10PM" means a restaurant is open Monday or Wednesday. AHeneen (talk) 18:18, 17 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

You think "M/W" is more legible than "M,W"? But the ultimate issue is this... unless there is a serious problem with the current format conventions, is it really worth the trouble of changing them throughout the site? LtPowers (talk) 00:35, 18 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I just wanted to poke my head in to say that yes, a change from M-Th to Mon-Thu would dramatically increase the length of our printed guides. That type of information is so iterated, that a little change might make a printed guide to a big guide like Chicago increase by 10+ pages. For the same reason, I prefer M,W-Sa instead of M, W-Sa. Actually, there's another reason too, in that it gets extra confusing with complex hours information, where a comma + space sets up a new range of hours (e.g., M,W-Th noon-2PM,4:30PM-10PM, F 10AM-5PM, Sa-Su 4PM-6PM). I still like putting a dash between consecutive days for clarity's sake in long, complex formulations, and don't think it's such an affront against logic and grammar ;) Clarity should always come first in a travel guide. --Peter ^Talk 21:14, 1 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I completely agree clarity should come first. A hyphen or dash indicates a range; to use it for consecutive days like "Sa-Su" is confusing. LtPowers (talk) 13:06, 3 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Peter, then could you use a dash in your examples? Tony (talk) 13:10, 3 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I do not at all see how Sa-Su could be confusing. Confusing how? Somebody is going to assume there are some mysterious extra days between Saturday and Sunday? I don't think anyone would bat an eyelash to see a convention scheduled for June 3-4 or a fishing season in Sept-Oct. I don't see why days of the week should be any more confusing. Texugo (talk) 13:44, 3 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

"Sept-Oct" is a range that implies September 1 - October 31. Like Roger said above: you don't say "Saturday through Sunday", so why would you write "Sa-Su"? LtPowers (talk) 13:27, 4 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Because it's a convenient and intuitive way to write it. For what it's worth, you don't say "Saturday (comma pause) Sunday" either. Texugo (talk) 13:50, 4 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Good thing I'm not proposing a comma, then. And writing a dash, as Tony prefers, is certainly not convenient; even a hyphen is no more convenient than a space, while intuitiveness is apparently at the crux of the disagreement. Me, I think it looks better and reads easier to see "M W F Sa" than "M W F-Sa". LtPowers (talk) 14:47, 4 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I actually do think "Saturday through Sunday" is something you would hear colloquially when, say, phoning business owners to ask about their hours. "Saturday and Sunday" is the best grammatically and intuitively, but would be terrible in our guides. To me, M,W,F-Sa is the best way to convey that information when things get messy. Intuitiveness is pretty subjective, though, so I'm not sure there's an easy resolution to this discussion, aside from maybe a sitenotice reader poll? --Peter ^Talk 16:34, 4 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Status quo bias would suggest we leave the policy as-is. Without a truly compelling reason to change it... LtPowers (talk) 23:24, 4 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I recommend the addition of the following bullet point to the Dates section:

• Use BCE and CE when appropriate to describe early dates, rather than BC and AD respectively.

We could debate all day over which is more accepted and which is more appropriate, but we've had enough of those discussions lately. I'm simply trying to standardise so we don't have situations in articles where both systems are used. The UN and Universal Postal Union recognise CE as the preferred system. It is also used by numerous authors and publishers worldwide who are trying to be sensitive in their writing which appeals to a wide variety of audiences. See w:Common Era. JamesA ^>talk 13:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree, but would prefer to go further and add text which also gives advice on approximations too, thus:

"

"

-- Alice^✉ 00:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I was kind of thinking about the same thing, but didn't bother mentioning it as it was too complex to try and set a standard. Should 50 CE just be 50? How about 278 CE? A "benchmark" year could be set where all dates before must have (B)CE, but what that date should be is contentious. I think all we really need to determine is that CE and BCE should be used over AD and BC. JamesA ^>talk 06:07, 1 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

If the text that I propose were to be implemented, your "benchmark" year is the natural year of 1 (CE or AD). Everything in that year or after, by default, has no era designation unless it is absolutely necessary to have one to avoid ambiguity. -- Alice^✉ 08:59, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I disagree with your interpretation. I don't think "The temple was built in 50 in the town of Ephesus" makes much sense. It could be interpreted as a number of things. A case-by-case basis based on a user's interpretation and common sense is better. I also don't like the idea of "c."; it's just taking things a step too far. All I am proposing is the (B)CE system. JamesA ^>talk 09:09, 1 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. CE and BCE are fine, but we should not offer advice here on when to use them; that is context-dependent and should be left to editor judgement. Also, using an abbreviation for circa is just silly. Pashley (talk) 22:41, 1 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I also agree. Using BCE is good. Using CE if the editor has any reason to doubt the clarity of the date without it is good. Abbreviating circa is not silly, but likely to lead to more confusion than benefit. If I read it I'd probably understand what was being said, but it'd through off my flow of reading, and would generally be bad. --Keithonearth (talk) 03:36, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I hate BC and AD, but I don't know that BCE and CE are widely understood. As for "c.", I don't see the problem; it's a very standard abbreviation for "circa". LtPowers (talk) 17:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

If we use the more ambiguous - but much shorter - single letter abbreviation "M" instead of "Mo" because we think it important to save one character (they all add up when one is printing), it would seem logical to abbreviate the "approx" contraction in listings.

Also, the text proposed above in pink by me is an addition; if I had my way the whole page would spell things out much more clearly about how and when to abbreviate - such as here: http://wikitravel.org/wiki/en/index.php?title=Wikitravel:Abbreviations&oldid=2017232

-- Alice^✉ 01:41, 7 April 2013 (UTC)

Using BCE & CE is ok. Personally, I'm only familiar with these abbreviations from a high school history course in which the textbook used them. Otherwise, I've only encountered the term on Wikipedia and maybe a few articles every so often. However, if someone doesn't know what the abbreviations stand for, they should be able to easily discern from its use in context. That said, correcting usage of BC/AD & BCE/CE should be limited to star nominations...I don't feel that this is such an important issue that editors should waste much time going through pages and fixing this. In most major style guides (incl. MLA, AP, & Chicago), BC/AD is either the proper notation or acceptable. Wikipedia's MoS states that either convention is acceptable, as long as only one is used on a page. Regarding circa, I don't find "c." to be odd/confusing and it is the preferred abbreviation on Wikipedia (circa should never be written out). The full stop (period) should be used after circa, but BCE/CE & BC/AD should be written without full stops.

Regarding dates, I would choose 1000 CE as the year before which the use of BCE/CE after the numeral is required. It's arbitrary, but to me it seems like a point far enough removed from "1 BCE/CE" that it could be discerned by the reader whether most events being described occurred BCE or CE. Policy would read:

Years prior to 1000 CE must be followed by a non-breaking space (inserted as  ) and then BCE ("before common era", in lieu of "BC") or CE ("common era", in lieu of "AD") as appropriate. To insert "2013 CE", type: 2013 CE. For years after 1000 CE, the addition of "CE" is optional. To indicate an approximate year or time period, use "c." (without italics) as an abbreviation for circa. For example: "c. 1200 BCE" to indicate "around the year 1200 BCE" or "1907-c. 1980" to indicate 1907 is an exact year while 1980 is an approximate year.

or...

Years prior to 1000 CE must be followed by a non-breaking space (inserted as  ) and then BCE/BC or CE/AD as appropriate. Only one convention (BCE/CE or BC/AD) may be used on a page. To insert "2013 CE", type: 2013 CE. For years after 1000 CE/AD, the addition of "CE/AD" is optional. To indicate an approximate year or time period, use "c." (without italics) as an abbreviation for circa. For example: "c. 1200 BCE" to indicate "around the year 1200 BCE" or "1907-c. 1980" to indicate 1907 is an exact year while 1980 is an approximate year.

While on this topic we should also discuss the use of other calendars and set forth proper style for them as as well as state when they are acceptable to use. AHeneen (talk) 06:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Just pointing out that BC/AD would be preferable in certain situations, usually related to sites tied up in Christian history, like Christian holy sites or sites whose significance changed after the adoption of Christianity (in a place like the Roman Empire). --Peter ^Talk 13:25, 10 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

I have written this:

Karaoke-kan (カラオケ館), Roppongi 5-1-6, ☏ +81 3 5786-9400. Noon to 6AM the next day, 8AM on Fridays/Saturdays. ¥640 for half an hour, ¥133 before 19:00. 

I am aware the hours should be standardized, but is 12:00-05:00 acceptable? I am worried some would misinterpret it. What is your recommendation? Nicolas1981 (talk) 11:07, 15 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yep, this is one of those cases where 24-hour format can be confusing. How about "closed 06:00-noon"? LtPowers (talk) 13:53, 15 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

If we go with the "closed 06:00-noon" idea, expressing the Fridays/Saturdays would become almost impossible, I think? Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

"Closed 06:00-noon; 08:00-noon F Sa" (or "08:00-noon Sa Su", depending on which was meant). LtPowers (talk) 13:59, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

How about "12:00-30:00" like is sometimes seen in overnight schedules in Japan? Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:30, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

No, definitely not that. I've never seen it, and a lot of people are likely to think it's a weird mistake. My vote would be to leave the hours as "Noon-6AM". That's the least ambiguous format.Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

The sidebox at Star nominations has said to use "...daily" not "Daily..." since Sep 2008 (per Wikivoyage talk:Star nominations#Thoughts on Star nom process), even though this guideline does not say it.

This guideline has said to use "24 hours daily" since Jan 2013 (per #24-hour party people).

The prescription at Star nominations has now been queried by two editors.

Should the guidance be (using examples here for ease of reading):

1. 9:30AM–5PM daily
2. Daily 9:30AM–5PM
3. No preference for either the above (and remove the preference from Star nominations).

If we decide on Daily 9:30AM–5PM, would we stick with "24 hours daily"? Nurg (talk) 10:22, 3 May 2013 (UTC)Reply

No.

My understanding is that Star grade articles should be perfectly formatted according to our manual of style that was current when they achieved that grade (and ideally the formatting would be updated as our MoS changes).

Rather than have the prescription at Star nominations fall out of step with our actual policy expressed on the relevant page of our MoS (and to avoid policy discussions being distributed in several places), I strongly favour removing the potted advice (and preference).

However, I do favour the idea of having larger periods of time given first, so an example of my favoured style would be: 23 Apr–14 Sep daily 09:30-17:20 or, in the event of non-closure during that Northern Hemisphere summer period, the example I would favour would be: 23 Apr–14 Sep open 24/7 or, if it were not thought too incomprehensible: 23  Apr–14 Sep 24/7.

Neither consistency nor brevity should sacrifice a readable style or tone. --118.93nzp (talk) 10:26, 19 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

You've lost me. I gave 3 numbered options. Do you agree with one of them or none of them? Nurg (talk) 19:13, 19 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

None of them, Nurg.

[I don't favour (1) because I don't think that we should be giving separate advice about formatting on our Star Nom page rather than just suggesting that editors check-out our MoS pages and, if we did, I certainly wouldn't suggest that they use the generally more long-winded, less clear and less widely understood in a world wide context 12h format and certainly not the pug ugly and difficult-to-understand-in-crowded-listings format of upper-casing AM and PM. I also don't favour (1) because it puts the daily interval after the times rather than before the times in a consistent order of larger time intervals first eg: Year or Season Month Day(s) Times.

I also don't favour (2) because we should NOT be giving separate advice about formatting on our Star Nom page rather than pointing editors towards our MoS pages. If we did, I certainly wouldn't suggest that the advice use the generally more long-winded, less clear and less widely understood in a world wide context, 12 hour format and certainly not the pug ugly and difficult-to-understand-in-crowded-listings format of upper-casing AM and PM. (2)'s only saving grace is that it does put the daily interval before the times in a consistent order of larger time intervals first: Year or Season Month Day(s) Times.

I also can't favour (3) because, although I agree that we should NOT be giving separate advice about formatting on our Star Nom page rather than pointing editors towards our MoS pages, I do actually prefer (2) to (1) because it does put the daily interval before the times in a consistent order of larger time intervals first: Year or Season, Month, Day(s), Times.] --118.93nzp (talk) 23:58, 19 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

So you think "Daily" should come before the time, and that the policy overleaf should give that guidance to editors. Nurg (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes to your first paraphrasing/translation, Nurg, but NO to your second. As I've written several times now, I really don't think we should be giving separate advice about formatting in the sidebox on our Star Nom page rather than pointing editors towards our MoS pages (of which the page overleaf is an example). --118.93nzp (talk) 01:52, 20 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, and sorry, I seem to be having difficulty making myself clear, but I now know what you think on the main thing I was asking. I understand what you are saying about the Start Nom page. But I'm confused by you saying No to putting such guidance overleaf, by which I mean on Wikivoyage:Time and date formats. Nurg (talk) 03:32, 20 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

My wording could have been better (I've amended it now) and I've removed the conflicting advice on the Star Nom page (which also favoured 12h AM/PM formatting without making clear that the correct 24h format is also perfectly acceptable). Sorry for any unwitting confusion caused. --118.93nzp (talk) 08:21, 20 November 2013 (UTC)Reply

I proposed a revamped section above. Still nothing has been done. The ugly caps are still the only mandated am/pm format, a prescription that is so off-track that I see no one seems to take any notice in the articles. Tony (talk) 13:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps this (and other forlorn and neglected issues such as the silly footnote style external link format and the daft way that image sizes are being arbitrarily changed from a proportion of the user's default preference size to fixed pixel widths) should be raised in the pub for a wider airing, Tony? -- Alice^✉ 16:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

A better place to raise them is at Wikivoyage:Requests for comment which is intended for such things.

For the links question, the policy is at Wikivoyage:External_links#External_link_format and the place to discuss it is that article's talk page. Then you might add a pointer on the RFC page. By the way, until/unless there is consensus to change that policy, please stop "fixing" links to follow your personal style preference. Pashley (talk) 17:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree that this policy has a lot of flaws, and I personally do ignore it from time to time when it's not the best. Alice, the [1] style external links are being phased out, if you happened to read the discussion on that talk page. It's just a matter of getting unambiguous support. I might attempt to do that now. James A ▪ talk 05:25, 21 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Pashley, links? I don't understand (perhaps you've posted in the wrong thread). Tony (talk) 09:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

As usual, Pashley is technically quite correct and was responding in a measured way to my own off-topic comments about "forlorn and neglected issues". While an rfc is intended exactly for this kind of thing, in these cases where we have not been putting the traveller first for a long while (eg by flouting some basic principles and conventions of the world wide web and user's image preferences) I do think there is a case for alerting a wider audience in the pub.

I've never understood myself why we ostensibly have a "no shouting" policy and then almost mandate it for the times display of US articles... -- Alice^✉ 11:23, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Alice, thanks for your comment. Let me review this talk page (I didn't know that much of my earlier proposal had been adopted), and work out what issues are viable for an RfC. The allowance of lower-case am/pm as well as uppercase uglies will be the obvious one. I can say already that for practical reasons of not wanting to create a huge reverse-engineering task, I'm not in favour of banning either upper or lower case—I do see lower-case am/pm a lot. So it seems to me the pragmatic thing to allow both, but to give editors the right to downcase consistently if they're editing through an article with the AM/PM shouting in full or, as so often, in part. Tony (talk) 11:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Full support for your practical and sensible proposal, Tony. -- Alice^✉ 17:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

My opinion is above at #Triple_consensus_again.3F.

However, it does seem worth noting that here in Canada, where the 24-hour-clock is generally rather rare except for Quebec & the military, I see the uppercase AM and PM much more often than the lowercase versions. I agree that they are ugly, but if they are actually much more widely used (which is my perception, but may not be accurate) then we should stick with them. Pashley (talk) 01:27, 22 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is not an American (or North American) site. Tony (talk) 08:25, 22 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

I certainly was not — and I do not think anyone else was — claiming this is, should be or even could be exclusively a North American site. But it is among other things a North American site.

I think that means we have to have the 12-hour clock in North American articles because that is what most readers will know. I have argued we should use 24 everywhere except NA, instead of the current policy of 12 everywhere, but I cannot argue against 12 in NA (even though I personally prefer 24) since 12 seems to be clearly standard here.

The only question I wanted to raise above was AM/PM vs am/pm. If the uppercase form is standard, then (again, despite my personal preference) I think we should use it. Pashley (talk) 10:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

I prefer am and pm to AM and PM (as I said in the first post to this page, in 2003 – I haven't changed my mind). Nurg (talk) 10:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Absolutely right, Nurg.

Since these two abbreviations derive from the latin phrases ante meridiem and post meridiem it seems rather ignorant (as well as ugly) to capitalise the abbeviations when the full words aren't normally capitalised. -- Alice^✉ 11:22, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't have any preference between lowercase and uppercase for AM/PM (because there are more important things in Wikivoyage and life to worry about and work on). But I am against changes to these sorts of policies that are of no to minimal benefit, but would require significant work to change. I am also generally against introducing style inconsistencies, when avoidable. --Peter ^Talk 16:32, 22 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

I could have written that for you, almost word for word; but it would have been too pointy, and rather impolite. The notion that nothing is worth changing because it will be too much trouble is a very poor way to proceed (the I've-got-better-things-to-do argument). The claim that this is an inconsequential proposal doesn't stand up—these ugly, shouting capitals are all over the place, and are markedly inconsistent within many articles (understandably, since most folk don't write THE CAPS naturally). But even if the proposal were for a more subtle change or allowance, it wouldn't matter. Did you notice that there was no proposal to convert the whole site by creating a massive reverse-engineering job to comply? No, it's a practical acceptance of two formats, not the age-old insistence on SHOUTING CAPS. I'd like to see encouragement of stylistic improvements rather than an automatic reaction against change (in just about every respect, thus far, as I've experienced it). You'd be the first to complain if there were tiny editing glitches in a movie. Tony (talk) 02:03, 23 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't really get the fuss over the all caps. Perhaps it's some weird Canadian quirk, but I see websites for local businesses that list their hours with caps -- so it's not just Wikivoyage that does it. I also find that the caps make the hours stand out from what can otherwise be a sea of text in our descriptions.

That said, showing it as AM/PM or am/pm doesn't strike me as being something that is going to confuse a traveller. I wouldn't object to allowing either as long as it was consistent within a guide (and for huge cities, that would mean all districts have the same usage). -Shaundd (talk) 05:38, 23 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Indeed, both people that seems to think it's shouting are from countries that routinely use 24 hour time, so perhaps they're not as familiar with its common usage in 12 hour countries? I've routinely seen both AM and a.m. across North America (with the unpunctuated am well in third place, I think, though I've never really paid much attention), and with no other implications associated with that choice; it's certainly not interpreted as shouting. So far as I'm aware, AM/PM are also the standard abbreviations used for the status bar clocks on every computer and smartphone operating system of note. -- D. Guillaume (talk) 07:04, 23 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Could you please get your facts right? I'm not from a country that routinely uses 24-hour format. Tony (talk) 08:55, 23 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Both are standard, and I don't perceive "AM/PM" to be shouting. However, I think the issue is when you have multiple times listed in a short space. Eg, "M-F 8AM-12PM, 2-5PM; Sa 8AM-2PM; Su 10AM-1PM". That all looks very messy and jumbled to me. But in an isolated case (M-F 8AM-2PM), it looks fine. My support would be to a case-by-case judgement, as long as the entire article is consistent. Then there is no need for mass trivial changes across the wiki, but users who believe it is messy are appeased and able to make the articles they're working on cleaner and easier to follow. James A ▪ talk 09:53, 23 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

As usual, you're not wrong as to which is the more readable, James - I'm always amazed at how US manufactured aircraft (and aircraft signage) use ALL CAPS when German psychologists determined back in the 30s (when the autobahns came into use) that lower case was more quickly read. A few milliseconds matter at 160 km/h (100 mph).

PS: I was raised in a country that does not use any of the three proposed formats - and I'm writing this comment from Ethiopia, a country which has it's own time keeping system. My personal preference is the same as that of most armed forces and for the same reasons - accuracy and unambiguity...

These are good points (ease of reading has been my primary concern, along with majority practice in English); but you're not suggesting inconsistency within an article, I presume. To respond to your specific example of isolated usage, I do believe the M–F is easier to pick up when not jostling with four other caps nearby. Perhaps compare one above the other:

M–F 8AM–2PM

M–F 8am–2pm

Looks like I have no other option but to propose specific text. Tony (talk) 10:08, 23 June 2013 (UTC)Reply

Please support or oppose, and/or provide a comment, for this proposal for a one-line addition (highlighted in green) to the policy on time formats.

The proposal results from the apparent support by many editors for lower case, or for a choice between them. Editors may or may not consider readability an issue, and would have the ability to decide for each article, and by consensus on the talk page if disagreement arose. Readability may be issue for some editors; real-world usage appears definitely not to insist on caps only.

Examples of multiple times listed in a short space:

• M–F 10AM–2PM, 5PM–10PM; Sa–Su 11AM–3PM, 5:30PM–10PM

and

• M–F 10am–2pm, 5pm–10pm; Sa–Su 11am–3pm, 5:30pm–10pm

Introducing a choice is designed to avoid making articles with upper case suddenly non-compliant, as a common practicality and in view of a few editors' concerns that "it's just not worth the trouble".

In terms of consistency, the addition would mirror the existing policy on the choice between 24- and 12-hour formats ("Do not use both 24- and 12-hour formats within one article.")

The proposal results from much debate going back to 2006; for example, here and here.

Existing

• Minutes are not shown for full hours: 5PM, not 5:00PM.
• Where minutes are shown, use a colon as the separator: 5:26PM, not 5.26PM or 5-26PM.
• Omit periods (full stops) in "AM" and "PM": 10:30AM–5PM, not 10:30A.M.–5P.M.
• Use noon and midnight, not 12AM and 12PM.
• Don't space the number from the am/pm sign: 2PM (not 2 PM).

Proposed

• Use either upper case 9:30AM–5PM, or lower case 9:30am–5pm, but keep the case consistent within an article.
• Minutes are not shown for full hours: 5PM, not 5:00PM.
• Where minutes are shown, use a colon as the separator: 5:26PM, not 5.26PM or 5-26PM.
• Omit periods (full stops) in "AM" and "PM": 10:30AM–5PM, not 10:30A.M.–5P.M.
• Use noon and midnight, not 12AM and 12PM.
• Don't space the number from the AM/PM sign: 2PM (not 2 PM).