@Ikan Kekek

I am new to wikivoyage and we have a new trail in Sweden SAT and yesterday I was out walking and a lady told me public Toilets is somethiung she need to find

My approach see issue created today #44 in Swedish

• I start take pictures
• I upload them to Wikicommons and add them to categories --> we can find the toilets
• next step is to see if they are on OSM and if the OSM object can reference the pictures on Commons...
• maybe add wikidata objects
• tell on wikivoyage that toilets are documented....

Any suggestions.... Salgo60 (talk) 05:38, 20 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

I don't know. I don't think referring to Commons is best, as that's a site for photos, although their coordinates are presumably noted on file pages. How many toilets is this in how many square km? If they're hard to find, it might be worth inserting coordinates for them into the article, if other users are OK with that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:54, 20 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ths user case is Stockholm Archipelago Trail

The challenge is, when we speak about Stockholm Archipelago Trail , we're talking about 20 islands—some equipped with restaurants and hotels, while others might offer, at best, drinking water and a toilet. While I personally don’t mind bringing my own water and navigating the lack of toilets, I’ve come to realize that for many people, the availability of clean and functional restrooms can significantly enhance their experience. Last week, during a conversation with some visitors, it became clear that this detail can make or break the enjoyment of exploring the breathtaking Swedish Archipelago. Accessible and reliable toilet facilities aren't just a convenience—they're a key part of ensuring comfort and inclusivity for everyone enjoying this natural paradise.

Currently, I'm conducting tests:

• I take pictures, which help me gather coordinates and evaluate the quality of the toilets.
• I work on creating objects in OpenStreetMap and link the images to Wikicommons.
• I experiment with Overpass Turbo queries to locate and analyze objects.

A crucial aspect to consider is how to present information about toilets, drinking water, and grocery stores on Wikivoyage. Providing practical details is essential, as travelers depend on this information to plan their trips effectively. By leveraging our tools, we can deliver these details efficiently, but defining a clear best-practice approach will ensure the data is both accessible and user-friendly. Salgo60 (talk) 20:16, 21 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm thinking a "Cope" section can be added and information about the availability or unavailability of toilets on each island could be addressed there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:51, 21 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

These kinds of personal reflections and notes using "I" are not at all in Wikivoyage style. See Wikivoyage:Pronouns and Wikivoyage:Tone. Moved here, accordingly, in case useful information that can be put in the 3rd person can be culled from any of it.

We have a discussion group on Facebook use it and ask people "Stockholm Archipelago Trail"

• Trail Difficulty & Terrain: The trail is very easy to walk, and you can walk it with a rucksack* with no problems, I sometime hide it and did the trail to pick up the rucksack
• Navigation Tips: All paths are very well marked I lost the track just a few times and then I had the app...
• Transportation: All islands can be reached by ferries. The largest ferry operator is Waxholmsbolaget they are also very fast on answering on facebook is my experience
  • Some other ferries are also possible to use as Blidösund, Strömma kanal other ferries, and Yxland and Furusund can also be reached by bus. (There are no physical markers, so you follow an electronic track.)
  • Later in the season, there is a North-South line that transports passengers across the Swedish archipelago. Many believe it will make things easier, but I’ll believe it when I see it. It has few departures that need to be timed carefully with meals, accommodations, and hikes… the future will tell.
• Accommodation Options: Vandrarhem, hotels, or camping about camping along the trail see FAQ "Can I camp anywhere?"
• I walked the trail off season and I did most of the trails by traveling back to Stockholm i.e. it was very long days leaving before 7 and back 22:00
  • The few places I stayed over night during my 20 island walk was on
    • 58.74143417.8671891 Landsort hostel was a good decision as the trip to Landsort took some time and I started late
    • 59.45760418.6770182 Svartsö Hotel and Hostel nice place and walked all different trails on the island and had a good dinner on 59.44692118.6952361 Bistro sågen
    • 59.47954218.8236883 Finnhamn hostel

• The official SAT site provides tracks you can follow. (I encountered some issues at times, so it's a good idea to prepare in advance and download the GPX track beforehand.) Nota bene: These are islands, so you’ll never truly get lost.
• I use Google Maps to find places to eat, check opening hours, and read food reviews. It also supports multiple languages and provides a ferry timetable, but I always double-check with Waxholmsbolaget and ask people on the ferries.
• Waxholmsbolaget has a Swedish app, but it's deprecated. The alternative is to use the SL app or using timetables....
• Google Maps is nearly as good and supports more languages, restaurants, rental properties, and accommodations.
• Lesson learned always ask 😉 ask the people on the ferry and tell them your desitination ask people who lives on the islands... (sometimes two boats appear at the same time, sometimes they change the boat, sometimes they dont stop if you dont tell them). They usually understand when someone is new and often have better control of the situation than you.
• Using English is no problem, as most Swedish people understand and speak it.
• Cash is rarely used—we primarily use credit cards.
• You can often eat on the boat, or bring a sandwich and coffee… or a beer. Since I only stayed for the day on some islands during the off-season, sometimes drinking water wasn’t available. However, food on the boat is almost always reliable, except on some smaller boats.

I try to make Open Street Map and Wikidata as good as possible as they supports more languages. I am right now testing using the OsmAnd app that has good integratiopn with Wikipedia articles, Open Street Map and also supports Mapillary and uploading your won pictures... so its a work in progress

• Open Street Map hiking routes are show on hiking.WaymarkedTrails.org - Stockholm Archipelago Trail is relation 19012437
• Wikipedia pictures from the trail is on commons:Category:Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail
• some Mapillary pictures has been taken south Landsort

Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:58, 1 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

I'm seeing SAT Arholma, SAT Lidö, SAT Furusund, SAT Yxlan and SAT Finnhamn come by in RC. Technically these are equivalents to districts in our hierarchy, so shouldn't these be located at Stockholm Archipelago Trail/Arholma et cetera? "SAT" can mean boatloads of different things globally, so making these into sub-articles would make sense in my eyes because of that. I'm not sure whether there is a guideline for how sub-articles should be used for itineraries / travel topics, so hence I'm asking. ― Wauteurz (talk) 16:31, 5 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

In the U.S., the SAT is the most common standardized test for high school students applying for college. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:14, 5 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

There are currently a rather large collection of articles for this trail & a template that lists most of them:

Stockholm Archipelago Trail sections - Getting in

Alphabetical Arholma • Brottö • Finnhamn • Fjärdlång • Furusund • Grinda • Ingmarsö • Landsort • Lidö • Möja • Nåttarö • Nämdö • Ornö • Runmarö • Rånö • Sandhamn • Svartsö • Utö • Yxlan • Ålö North → South Arholma • Lidö • Furusund • Yxlan • Finnhamn • Svartsö • Ingmarsö • Brottö • Grinda • Möja • Sandhamn • Runmarö • Nämdö • Ornö • Fjärdlång • Utö • Ålö • Rånö • Nåttarö • Landsort

Is that the right approach? Or should these be sections of the main article? Or subpages? Pashley (talk) 22:38, 5 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Subsections did not work the numbering schema broke see https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail&oldid=5072906

• it is 21 sections that are rather independent see Wikidata https://w.wiki/EQ5S
• I have about 400 wikidata objects connected to the Trail map / list
• The Wikidata project d:Wikidata:WikiProject_Stockholm_Archipelago_Trail
• WikiVoyage articles connected to items part of d:Q131318799 - https://w.wiki/EQ6Y
  • wikivoyage banners created

- Salgo60 (talk) 21:17, 6 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

As I raised in the discussion above, I believe these should all become subpages in the same way how districts are subpages of their city. Globally speaking "SAT" means a load of different things, and we use SAT ourselves to link to San Antonio#By plane. I believe that hierarchy rules for itineraries and travel topics is non-existent in that department. Making these articles in subpages feels like the correct and sensible hierarchy to me. ― Wauteurz (talk) 11:39, 7 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Ok no problem if more people agree... do you do redirects when moving as I have already start linking some of the pages on external pages... - Salgo60 (talk) 16:23, 7 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Subpages would be my preferred solution, e.g. move SAT Arholma to Stockholm Archipelago Trail/Arholma without a redirect. Similar things are done for dive sites like Diving_in_Barbados/Cobblers_Reef as well as for city districts. Pashley (talk) 20:54, 7 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Yes, moving the pages as indicated by @Pashley without a redirect seems like a reasonable approach. Mrkstvns (talk) 21:04, 7 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

I agree that this is a sensible idea. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:10, 7 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Moving without redirect requires an admin. I suppose any of us could do the moving right now, unless there are some unresolved issues with the naming. –LPfi (talk) 10:06, 8 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

I've left some comments in the source text of this article where my knowledge comes up short. I'm relaying them here so that the discussion of them happens in a central place.

• In #Understand: w:sv:Stockholm Archipelago Trail lists 21 islands, whereas 20 island trails are listed here. Does one trail cross two islands, or is this an error?
• In #Get in: Ferries might be the cheapest and most readily available option, but if they are unreliable or someone wishes to hike in the off-season, could they hire a boat? What boats can be driven in Sweden without a boating license, and are there any general schemes or services where boat rental is facilitated that we could link to?

― Wauteurz (talk) 14:35, 11 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

good catch 20 is correct Salgo60 (talk) 15:40, 11 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Any information on boating licences etc. should go into Boating on the Baltic Sea#Skipper qualifications (the article should probably be linked if we suggest bare-boat charter). I don't know how to hire a boat or kayak, but it should certainly be possible. Sweden allows you to drive most any boat you'd consider without formal qualifications, but more strict regulations are currently discussed. –LPfi (talk) 18:58, 11 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! I have in the mean time found some of the specific information I wanted. I'll link Boating on the Baltic Sea's relevant sections where applicable. As per the Transportstyrelsen: There is currently no requirement for a license if you have a recreational craft/boat shorter than twelve and narrower than four metres. My main idea for including this information is that many hikers and visitors might not be capable boaters or even interested in boating, but would be willing to consider renting a boat to get from A to B if it makes their visit a lot easier, or if it allows them to chain together hikes on islands that otherwise would take forever to travel between.
― Wauteurz (talk) 19:24, 11 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

On this side of the Sea of Åland, finding a taxi boat should be no problem, and in the Stockholm archipelago, with lots of rich city folks, I suppose they abound, but I don't know where to find them. Also bare-boat or skippered chartering should be possible, as should renting kayaks with or without guide. I think a small modern outboard (one that is not too fast, probably less than 14 kW/20 hp) would be a convenient option, not too difficult to handle even for landlubbers with the right mindset. Kayaks are slow and require some skill, getting a taxi boat multiple times quickly becomes expensive, and a real yacht requires at least some real seamanship. –LPfi (talk) 21:11, 11 June 2025 (UTC)Reply

Is renting boats really the primary focus of an article about walking in the archipelago?

I manage a Facebook group with 670 members, and so far, no one has inquired about renting boats, kayaks, or taxi boats for travel between different sections. The distances and the sea can be rather rough out there so its not my recommended way of transport. There is also the option to hire a helicopter or hire with a captain but feel the target group is small...

• interested is that the people presenting the trail for journalist used rib boats (link video Linked in) but again they play with tax payers money....
• I feel target group walking and not spending to much money is the reader
• the Stockholm Archipelago I think is the biggest in the world I think with more than 20 000 island I myself is a kayaker but shouldnt recommend non experts to transport between the island using kayak.

Salgo60 (talk) 04:03, 12 June 2025 (UTC)Reply