Previous unilaterally-applied Star, going for confirmation. Anything that's missing from the article is probably also missing from the destination. :) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 10:45, 15 May 2006 (EDT)

• Support. - (WT-en) Andrew Haggard (Sapphire) 09:06, 9 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support. This is pretty much the template of what a perfect national park article should look like. (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:15, 15 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support. Great article. -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:11, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
• Comment: I was wrong about my "anything missing from the article" remark above; I just got back from 10 days hiking from one end of IR to other, and I have stuff to add. :) - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:03, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support. I don't think "nothing missing" is a necessary condition :) (WT-en) Hypatia 21:07, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support. What Hypatia said. -- (WT-en) Colin 19:39, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support. very nice article(WT-en) Berru 13:15, 30 June 2006 (EDT)

So I'd like to nominate Singapore as the first "Huge city" Star -- which means that not only the main article but all its districts need to be in tip-top shape. Note that all listings now use the new HTML listing format, so if they don't display according to the MoS, you can blame Evan, not me. =P Fire away! (WT-en) Jpatokal 21:26, 15 June 2006 (EDT)

• Support, but I think it lacks one thing — a map of downtown, something that helps me get from, say, Raffles to People's Park on foot. (WT-en) Pashley 03:23, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support. This is the template for how to set up a city article. The map on Singapore/Central looks sufficient for the needs of most travelers (in addition to the many other maps). Great photos, too. -- (WT-en) Ryan 13:11, 21 June 2006 (EDT)
• My error, not finding the maps. (WT-en) Pashley 10:58, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
  • No, the guide's error for putting it in a bad place. I've been thinking about ditching the Central sub-region entirely and merging the little info it has to the main page, I'm not sure it adds much value. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:18, 22 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support! V comprehensive article (WT-en) Tsandell 15:25, 27 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support! Excellent article (WT-en) Jan 13:29, 28 June 2006 (EDT)
• Previous comment removed -- (WT-en) Colin 22:59, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
• Actually, the stated criteria for a "star" city article require only that any district articles be "guide" quality. When I drafted these criteria, I figured some leniency ought to be given regarding the imperfections of sub-articles. I haven't had a chance to go through the main article carefully yet, but from what I've seen, perhaps with a little MoS proofreading, it has my support. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 22:20, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
  • Thanks! I'll limit my critique to the actual article then. -- (WT-en) Colin 22:59, 29 June 2006 (EDT)
• Support, absolutely, great content. --(WT-en) Terence Ong 06:57, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
• Support. Great one... love the place. -BratX.
• Support. Awesomely done! 66.9.126.26 19:10, 24 July 2006 (EDT)

• The information in this guide is very complete, and it includes detailed information for every heading. The map could be better, but the existing map is still useful. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:20, 4 November 2006 (EST)
• Support -- (WT-en) Colin 15:39, 4 November 2006 (EST)
• Support, with a qualification. One minor addition to "Get in" I'd like to see, after which I would unequivocally support it: what's the best way to get there via plane (i.e., what's the nearest airport with commercial service, how far away is it, on what roads)? -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:27, 4 November 2006 (EST)

  I've added a By plane section using information from the nps.gov site - hopefully that's sufficient, but any other feedback is appreciated. -- (WT-en) Ryan 16:55, 4 November 2006 (EST)

  Looks good to me. Unqualified support now. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:56, 4 November 2006 (EST)

• Support. -- (WT-en) Tim 17:04, 4 November 2006 (EST)
• Support. Really a great example of a park guide. And nice work on the get in by plane section. (WT-en) Maj 17:17, 5 November 2006 (EST)

• Great article with lots of detailed information, and (WT-en) Mark has done his usual wonders in cartography. -- (WT-en) Ryan 14:20, 4 November 2006 (EST)
  • I think it's largely there, but of course I'm biased. :-) (Thanks, Ryan.) One question: should there be a "Stay safe" section? It isn't routine for a "Small city" to have one, and Santa Fe is a small city (population under 70,000) despite its celebrity. However, if there's a consensus that such a section belongs, owing to the vast number of people that visit, I'll add one. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:37, 4 November 2006 (EST)
    • Since "stay safe" is an optional section I don't think one should be required here - not having such a section doesn't (IMHO) prevent this article from being a "star" article, but adding one would only be a good thing. -- (WT-en) Ryan 15:58, 4 November 2006 (EST)
• Support -- (WT-en) Colin 15:39, 4 November 2006 (EST)
• Support. excellent map and good use of photos! (WT-en) Maj 17:17, 5 November 2006 (EST)

• Can't really think of anything major missing anymore, although the History section is kinda dinky. Even the linked cities and destinations seem to be in decent shape. (WT-en) Jpatokal 10:38, 26 November 2006 (EST)
  • As regards "linked cities and destinations," there are some possibly significant loose ends in the "Get in" section (particularly under "By boat") that should be tidied up, IMO. Otherwise, I agree, this is an excellent country article. I think I could support it without those repairs; I know I would support it once they are made. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:54, 26 November 2006 (EST)
    • I've added outlines for Hanko and Ivalo, which were the only redlinks left. Anything else? (WT-en) Jpatokal 13:28, 26 November 2006 (EST)
      • You might also look at Naantali and Kapellskär, which are referenced lower in the section. Can't see anything else. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:32, 26 November 2006 (EST)
      • Kapellskär is in Sweden, so it's not really applicable. Naantali does deserve an entry for Moomin World(tm) if nothing else, I'll write it up when it's not 3 AM here anymore... (WT-en) Jpatokal 13:37, 26 November 2006 (EST)
        • Added. (WT-en) Jpatokal 00:11, 27 November 2006 (EST)
          • Satisfies me. Support. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:27, 27 November 2006 (EST)
• Support, with comments
  1. The status rating says that it should have different choices for which regions or cities to visit ("usable" status or better). Does this mean "1 or more" have usable status or "more than one"? Finland appears to have only one region beyond usable, though it has several cities beyond usable.
  2. It would be nice if the the Åland region were upgraded to outline.
  3. Would be nice if the ferries listed in Get in/By boat contained more than just a web address.
  4. If there are more pictures that could be added, I think the article would benefit.

  -- (WT-en) Colin 01:42, 27 November 2006 (EST)

  • Ferry section rewritten and more pictures added. (WT-en) Jpatokal 04:03, 27 November 2006 (EST)
• Support - nice article with decent pictures/maps and very good content. -- (WT-en) Tim 18:58, 30 November 2006 (EST)
• Support, but the following are "would be nice" items:
  1. The quickbar image is nice, but doesn't seem to conjure thoughts of Finland for me. Is there a more iconic image that could be used?
     • Well, Finland really is "the land of 10,000 lakes", so it's actually very representative scenery and kinda iconic. Other options include Helsinki's Cathedral, which already has a prime position in that article, and the sauna pic further below, which would be kinda weird for a country article. On the German WT, they've got a picture of some red houses in the countryside, but I'm not sure that says "Finland" more than it says "somewhere in northern Europe". At any rate, you're welcome to trawl through my pics and look for something better, but while pics like this or this may be arty and accurate, I'm not sure they're very attractive! (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:22, 30 November 2006 (EST)
       • I'll obviously defer to the Finn as to what's the best image for Finland, although from an aesthetic standpoint I like the image of Lenin looking backwards as well as the picture of the dock that's centered, stretching out into the lake. -- (WT-en) Ryan 02:46, 1 December 2006 (EST)
  2. The "—" character in listings has been copyedited a lot lately based on Project:Manual of style#One-liner listings, so we may want to update this article to conform.
  3. The "Learn" section is currently just two links. It would be good if there were at least descriptions of the links, and preferably some information about learning opportunities in Finland.

These are minor nits - this is a really good article. -- (WT-en) Ryan 21:36, 30 November 2006 (EST)

OK, so I'm going to star-ify it. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:23, 15 December 2006 (EST)

• Extraordinarily complete guide, with multiple maps for a little-known destination. (WT-en) Paul has put in great effort on this guide. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 18:39, 18 November 2006 (EST)
• Support. Great article. My only reservation would be due to the author's comments on Talk:Dalian about splitting the article into districts - if the article is going to be split into districts then we should postpone this nomination until that happens, but I don't think a split is necessary. -- (WT-en) Ryan 19:56, 18 November 2006 (EST)
  • The article has now been split into districts, which look good to me. My only reservations would be:
    1. There is no "Contact" heading for any of the districts. I personally don't think that not having that heading should prevent the article from becoming a star, but the Project:District article template includes it for reasons that I've never fully understood.
    2. Many of the accommodation and other listings are missing contact information. Based on Paul's comment that some of this information isn't available I don't think this should prevent the article from becoming a star, but it would still be nice to have.

    -- (WT-en) Ryan 21:21, 30 November 2006 (EST)

Doesn't the contact header within district articles serve as a place to list internet cafes, telephone shops, or post offices so we can contact the world? -- Sapphire

Yes, but I've never understood why it's a required part of the district article template but not (for example) the small city article template. I'm not sure that it's important enough information that it needs to be included for all district articles. -- (WT-en) Ryan 21:39, 30 November 2006 (EST)

I don't think it a necessity for every district to have a contact section either, but there should be, at the very least, a "Contact" section on the main article to explain area codes for land phones and cell phones, and postal codes. I support. -- (WT-en) Andrew H. (Sapphire) 21:45, 30 November 2006 (EST)

I thought I had included a contact section (I could have sworn I mentioned the post offices at least) but evidently my brain was playing tricks on me again. Anyway, I have now added a section, and I'm pretty sure I didn't just imagine it this time. --(WT-en) Paul. 00:16, 1 December 2006 (EST)

• Needs a pass through with a close eye to commas and missing phone numbers and hours. And Project:Time and date formats.-- (WT-en) Colin 16:53, 22 November 2006 (EST)
  • I just made a sweep for typos and punctuation (avoiding for the moment the usual issues of "English English" vs. "American English"), and that should all be in good shape. As for hours, if the information isn't available, no penalty for not including it. Support, and kudos to User:(WT-en) Paul. for a fantastic job on a little-known place. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:43, 16 December 2006 (EST)
• Well I've split the article into regions now (I'd been busy working on maps and completely forgot about it), if it seems like overkill I can always roll it back. I'll do a copyedit for commas and time and date formats, as far as phone numbers and opening times are concerned, however, I've filled in everything I can but some of the information simply isn't available from here in the UK. --(WT-en) Paul. 11:14, 24 November 2006 (EST)
• Support, unless folks think we need to wait on more info for listings and/or for the districts to settle down. Great work though! (WT-en) Maj 23:45, 26 November 2006 (EST)

So, I'm going to apply the coveted designator shortly, unless anyone objects. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:47, 16 December 2006 (EST)

A comprehensive article (the exception being get out) that has decent pictures and is well written. Maybe needs a map? I'd also like to see some smaller destinations make star - an article doesn't need to be gigantic to be star! -- (WT-en) Tim 04:58, 2 December 2006 (EST)

I'm afraid a map is, on purpose, a definite requirement for a Star article. (WT-en) Jpatokal 06:17, 2 December 2006 (EST)

I've now drawn and added a map to help the article along. --(WT-en) Paul. 13:43, 2 December 2006 (EST)

Excellent. I can only think of one more complaint: can you explain what exactly "machair" and "crofting" are? (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:55, 2 December 2006 (EST)

Crofting is I think a traditional type of farming, but I can't be more specific than that. I have no idea what a machair is, that term baffled me when reading the article. Unfortunately I'm not a Hebrediean, I just like making maps. --(WT-en) Paul. 23:20, 2 December 2006 (EST)

Crofting can be most succinctly described as subsistence farming on someone else's land. Machair is a former beach which is now a suitable for growing vegetation. I agree that both could be better described in the article. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:25, 4 December 2006 (EST)

Hello from Berneray! The map is uncannily good. I have edited 'crofting' and 'machair'; hope they are clearer. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006

• I seem to detect an incompatibility between the statement "Outdoor activities include boat trips to nearby islands and to see the seals close up, windsurfing, canoeing, and kayaking" in "Do," and the "Get out" statement that Berneray is the end of the line and the only way out is the way you came in. Please resolve this (ideally with more information about those "boat trips to nearby islands" -- how do you arrange them? what islands? what's to do on the islands? etc.) after which I'll vote to support; the rest of it looks good. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 00:16, 3 December 2006 (EST)

I'd love to see more small destinations make star status. However, I don't think this article is ready yet. This article needs some addresses and phone numbers for listed items; a good scrubbing of the prose (count the number of punctuation mistakes, for instance); phone numbers aren't in standard format; and a lot of information is just left out. Do we need to break down this region article into separate village articles for each of the 5 villages listed? I think that it's exceptional when we don't do that, and we should be extra careful in those cases. Here's a troubling quote: There are many historical remains and sites, dating from Viking times and before, through to more contemporary structures. A guide book (£1) is available from the shop and information centre which details and maps some of these sites. Sorry, but "buy the one-pound guidebook" is not my idea of a star guide. --(WT-en) Evan 08:05, 3 December 2006 (EST)

Evan, the entire island has a population of 126 — breaking this into villages is not likely to be very useful. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:17, 3 December 2006 (EST)

Agreed, Jani, unless the villages are sufficiently distant, distinctive, and noteworthy to merit their own articles. It doesn't seem to be the case with Berneray. This island may be the exception that proves the geographical hierarchy rule. However, that's going to require some careful management, then -- what does this strategy mean for how we do addresses in listings, for example? --(WT-en) Evan 08:28, 3 December 2006 (EST)

"What does this strategy mean"? IMO, it means the approach is successful and correct: drive the elaboration down to the lowest level where it makes sense. In this case, Berneray is that level. Check the dimensions as well as the population. You're talking about an island smaller than some city neighborhoods -- not even districts. Further elaboration is almost like giving an individual house an article. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 10:18, 3 December 2006 (EST)

You misquote me. I said, "What does this strategy mean for how we do addresses in listings?" I agree that the level of detail here is correct, but I was being much more specific in my question. If we conglomerate a number of villages (hamlets, really) into one article, like we (correctly IMHO) do in Berneray, do we need to specify where each listing is -- say, adding the name of the hamlet after the street address, if it exists? I think my point in general is that our Manual of style doesn't treat this kind of region directly, so it's difficult to say whether our guide on Berneray meets the MoS exactly. --(WT-en) Evan 12:46, 4 December 2006 (EST)

In this instance, I don't believe the village names are needed to locate the establishments; I'm not even sure if street and house numbers are even applicable in all cases. An "address" should be whatever the locals use to distinguish this place from that place, or to tell where something is located; whether they follow national postal-service standards shouldn't be an issue. As for the MoS, if the inclusion of the village or neighborhood were necessary to locate a place, it could be added in parentheses as "extra directions"... or simply accepted as part of the address, much like the NE/NW/SW/SE designations for Washington, D.C. are. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 18:25, 4 December 2006 (EST)

This article should not have been nominated for a star till the listings and info are more complete. The Get Around section just has two lines. There are no options for eating/sleeping. However, the images and map are very good. Punctuation needs to be dealt with.

Huh? There are half a dozen Sleep options listed, but there's only one Eat listing because it's only one standalone restaurant on the island. I don't really see what else could be added to Get around either as there's obviously no public transport, although it would be nice to know if taxis/rented cars are an option at all. (WT-en) Jpatokal 11:38, 4 December 2006 (EST)

Population figure updated. Breaking it into villages is pointless as they all merge into one here anyway. People are located by their name and house, not by "village". Added nearest taxi company. My punctuation is indeed lousy and hope someone else can make better. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006

• I think this is a swell Off The Beaten Path destination (I nominated it), and I think it's a nice "guide" article (I did a fair amount of the online research and MOS-ing for that). But I don't think it's a "star", even with the map and the recent proofreading. The problem isn't the depth or breadth of the listings; I believe they're darn near exhaustive. It's the first-person guidance. The original author contributed a fair amount of the been-there info that a really good Wikivoyage article needs, but I think it needs more of that in several areas (e.g. Yeah, what about those viking remains? Or car hire?) to really say that this article is really all-that-and-a-bag-of-crisps. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 22:12, 4 December 2006 (EST)

• Some of the B&Bs do not have a location listed. Phone numbers should be begin with a + for international dialing and be formatter per Project:Phone numbers. The Eat listing needs some pricing info. The reference to Angus MacAskill should be reworked since the text seems to imply I should recognize the name, and I don't. -- (WT-en) Colin 02:26, 5 December 2006 (EST)

Formatted phone numbers. Reworked MacAskill. Added some eat listing pricing info. Added information about car hire, driving obstacles, walking on Berneray. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006

• I wrote the article so can't vote/nominate. One thing would like to stress after reading some of the comments is that, indeed, Berneray is devoid of lots of man-made facilities e.g. loads of places to eat, shopping arcades, whatever. That's what makes it attractive to a lot of people. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006

• • Actually you can, and I think your latest round of edits has addressed pretty much all the complaints made above? I certainly can't see much that could be improved. (WT-en) Jpatokal 08:16, 10 December 2006 (EST)
  • Agree with Jani on all counts; your vote counts as much as anyone else's. Support -- my previous comments have been addressed, and there may not be a destination on all of Wikivoyage where the ratio (article content/size of destination) is as high as this one. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 19:00, 15 December 2006 (EST)

• More. Added cycle hire details. Added more about crafts. Made some corrections. The point about lack of Viking info was fair enough, so added loads of information on the historical sites and remains that are scattered across the islands. Removed pointless bit about the guidebook. Added detail about Giant MacAskill. Added detail about events, where to find out about them when on Berneray. Added more detail about getting to other islands and what to do there. Added stuff about crotal(litchen). Added notes about silence/noise. Added two more pictures, and a link to the online weather readings. Okay, I really am running out of information to include about Berneray! -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 10 December 2006

Support, but the Get Around Sections needs to be edited. Maybe a walking trail or s'thing could be mentioned. And Get In is kind of dinky too. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 06:45, 15 December 2006 (EST)

• Support - I think I'm done messing around with minor cleanups (I hope they were all cleanups and not downs, anyone feel free to re-correct anything that I changed... but I think this article is in amazing shape, so hopefully in 2 days we can give it a new shiny label... (WT-en) Cacahuate 05:11, 16 December 2006 (EST)

• • I've added some more to the Get In section (another resident suggested that the latitude and longitude are v helpful to boaties). There's no recognised walking trail. Altered a few very minor mistakes that had crept in. Shown it to a few other Berneray residents who also can't think of any more stuff to add. -- (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 16 December 2006

• Support. I have been to Berneray several times, and this is a good useful article. A few minor points (these can be ignored) - It is a pity that the spelling has been americanised, as this might deter local distribution of paper copies; The blackhouses might get more of a mention, as many visitors spending only an hour or two look at them; The first photo is of the snow, which is not typical (<10 days per year), maybe this should be swapped with one of the others to avoid giving the wrong first impression, or another view of Backhill or the beach could be used. (WT-en) AlasdairW 18:08, 17 December 2006 (EST)

See Project:Spelling regarding the American vs. Commonwealth English spelling... (WT-en) Cacahuate 02:54, 18 December 2006 (EST)

What about 'Nutter on a beach' on John's website - if you think it's a better intro pic maybe he'll upload it for us... (WT-en) Cacahuate 03:06, 18 December 2006 (EST)

If you are refering to the picture of cows on a beach, it may be useful in future, but not here - they are on the beach on the island of Vatersay near Barra. I was thinking of one of the ones on isleofberneray.com of Backhill, or simply changing the order of the existing photos. (WT-en) AlasdairW 18:02, 18 December 2006 (EST)

No, I was referring to the one with the lone person on the beach, but actually I like the one you just mentioned better, gives a nice sense of place. I'll email John and ask if he'll upload it, I think that would make a nice intro pic, then we can move the snow one down a bit. (WT-en) Cacahuate 01:56, 19 December 2006 (EST)

Added more about blackhouses, plus a picture of a restored (and lived in) blackhouse. Added picture of Backhill at top (it has my house in it! Centre, slightly left, the white one with a weaving shed between it and the sea), and moved picture of snowy Berneray further down. Spaced out the pictures in the article more sensibly. (WT-en) Jkirriemuir 19 December 2006

And once again, thanks for all the work! Gotta put it on my list to visit now since it's taken so much of my attention - sounds like a nice place.  :) (WT-en) Cacahuate 07:10, 19 December 2006 (EST)

• I hate to rain on the parade, but I've reverted this article's status. "See" and "Do" in this article don't match our Manual of style for attraction listings. I realize that Berneray is going to be exceptional because of its tiny size, but that means we have to be extra careful and make sure the exception is an exemplary exception. --(WT-en) Evan 11:12, 20 December 2006 (EST)
  • I object vehemently. You are applying City criteria to something that, as any number of people have tried to explain, is far more like a Park than a City -- and by Park criteria, See and Do are just fine. Please explain why this set of standards is appropriate, as well as why you chose to make this action unilaterally after a great deal of discussion had already gone on and a consensus had been reached. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:24, 20 December 2006 (EST)
    • Star articles aren't a popularity contest, Bill, and if the article doesn't match the MoS, then it's not a star. That's the whole point of the article status system. "Star" == "perfectly matches the MoS". A consensus was not reached, either: I already gave my objections, above, and it should be obvious from my changing the article back to "guide" that I don't agree with this star status. The article is not fine as a "national park" -- it's not formatted as a park. Is this an exceptional location? Yes, indeed. We don't really cover teensy-tiny islands very well in the MoS. Does that mean we throw any old style into it and call it a star? I don't know. Personally, I'd much rather have some minor variants on Wikivoyage's MoS become stars, so we get used to it, before we throw in a really, really different. --(WT-en) Evan 11:37, 20 December 2006 (EST)
      • Balderdash. You have selectively omitted a key bit of the Star nomination language, which I quote here with emphasis added:

The article is essentially complete. It meets all of the above criteria. It follows the manual of style exactly or is the exception that proves the rule. Prose is not only near-perfect grammatically but also tight, effective, and enjoyable. {...}

The entire thrust of the very extensive discussion above is precisely that Beneray is such an exception. Why is that so hard to comprehend? We built the provision into the guidelines, for durn good reasons I would add; let us now do as the provision says. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 11:45, 20 December 2006 (EST)

well, i reluctantly just 'mos'd' the remains section, which can be roll back too... I agree it was better before. While I think that sticking to the MoS is very important, I think that dumbing down an article to conform isn't pushing it towards star any quicker. The list format suits attractions that have phone numbers and things, but for a pile of interesting rocks it's much more interesting in the format that it was in. Before you were able to follow it easier and it would be much easier I think to have used it as what it is - a guide to see the sights. I think Star Status should be for articles that are as good as they can be considering the location being written about, not for the best article that fits within the still relatively newly established guidelines. (WT-en) Cacahuate 11:51, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Agreed with Bill and Cacahuate. Evan, you're out of line here. (WT-en) Jpatokal 12:06, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Bill, I agree that Berneray is an exception, and that star articles should handle exceptions. The problem with the Berneray article isn't with the article -- it's with the MoS. Berneray is so much of an exception that it's not proving some rules and following others --it's messing with all of them. Its size and scattering of hamlets make it a challenge to the geographical hierarchy; its lack of street addresses makes it a challenge to all our listing formats. Its remote location and nature challenges which of the article templates to use. I'm really amazed with the amount of work that's gone into this article, but I still have serious reservations about it. We're breaking too much new ground with this article, and I'm really, really not happy with calling it a star. --(WT-en) Evan 12:25, 20 December 2006 (EST)

I repeat: balderdash. I have never seen a rule, anywhere, that is actually "proven" by an exception; that is a figure of speech with a widely understood meaning -- a meaning that, I continue to insist, is entirely applicable here. If the "proves the rule" language is causing problems, then let's fix it, but that's a separate issue. Meanwhile, the process has been followed and the grounds for an exception (as permitted by both the letter and the spirit of the guidelines) are entirely in hand and justified, at rather extraordinary length. This is a Star article, period. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:42, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Maybe it's a good opportunity to come to a consensus on what is the criteria or template standard for a place like this. I'm working on some others at the moment anyway, such as Havelock Island and some places in Mozambique that are going to come up against similar issues, so it would be nice to have a standard to measure them against... maybe Berneray can be or become that standard. No sense in just saying 'it isn't a star', let's figure out (again) how to make it one. (WT-en) Cacahuate 12:36, 20 December 2006 (EST)

I'm going to just take a tactical retreat here. I've rolled back my changes and yours, but if you think the changes were worth it, please feel free to reinstate them.

I have to admit that I had no idea as to the finality that people ascribed to the star status. I think it's unwarranted, and I think that the process here is just getting ironed out. However, I made a mistake in overruling the decision made here, even if I think it was wrong and that consensus wasn't reached. Star status means a lot to me, but I guess that means that I need to pay more attention to this page, rather than changing the decision made by people already. I'm sorry for the problems. --(WT-en) Evan 12:49, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Thank you. I, for one, appreciate this "tactical retreat" very much. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:51, 20 December 2006 (EST)

But it is still a good point - the MoS isn't clear about things like this... not that things need to be settled at this exact moment, but it would be nice to know what kind of formatting is going to be acceptable for the future... Evan obviously feels strongly against this format, so something should be figured out... (WT-en) Cacahuate 13:02, 20 December 2006 (EST)

Conversation re-opened in 2023:

I have no idea whether this small island merits its status, see Pro & Con on its discussion page. It's been updated and switched to Rural area. Grahamsands (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good article, but it isn't star status. I see several flaws in formatting and style. However, some of these may be able to be corrected. First, I recall our style guide directing that bulleted content should be prose unless it must be a bulleted list. The references to animal species, for example, should be converted to prose without bullet points. Hyphens are used where a dash would be more appropriate, and some sections don't have enough content. In fact, some listings are also listing coordinates, which would put even guide status in question. I believe some of these changes would benefit from research or local knowledge to be corrected. --Comment by Selfie City (talk) (contributions) 02:03, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Barring updates, Special:PermaLink/4733626 was very much star-worthy – it's far more readable, instead of the current endless list of bulletted POIs with useful information hidden in a fluff of text. No, I'm absolutely opposed to removing the star from an article that was very much star-worthy before an overhaul (something that *shouldn't* be done on star articles). --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:45, 2 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Outcome: star retained. In 12 months there was only one vote to retain and one to demote. Given this Rashomon-like agony of indecision, status quo prevails. Grahamsands (talk) 16:10, 22 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Really comprehensive guide, with lots of info, maps, and great pictures. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 22:37, 5 February 2007 (EST)

• Don't support. While it is no doubt a very good article, crucial listings are missing. Sleep/Eat info does not follow the MoS. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 09:41, 6 February 2007 (EST)

• I echo PerryPlant in my support of the article! (WT-en) FrankEM

• This information about Zion National Park leaves no "Stones Unturned" Very well done and has enlightened me to the wonders that lay in this Desert Oasis!--(WT-en) Bomabro84738 20:33, 6 February 2007 (EST)

• Support as long as a few people who have been there agree that it is very comprehensive... Having not been there, it looks great to me. Good pics, good maps. A few minor things:

• Hours for the liquor store at the Best Western would be nice, and a phone # if they have one. The article says that it's in Springdale but the listing isn't on that page at all.
• Are the Coral Pink Sand Dunes not in Canyon Country? If so, maybe move up with the other parks in the "Get out" section.
• Where does the "information" phone# go to in the get in by bus section? Is it for Greyhound or one of the unnamed tour agencies?

Otherwise I think it looks pretty darn good... Upamanyu, I've cleaned the article up a bit, have I addressed your concerns? (WT-en) ::: Cacahuate 02:52, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Yeah, support. You've really done a good job, Cacahuate. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 05:12, 9 February 2007 (EST)

I hike and live there and I think the information is correct. I think all is fixed now. :)(WT-en) FrankEM

Good eye Cacahuate. I checked around, and the phone# is for the greyhound service in Utah. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:46, 7 February 2007 (EST)

Any other comments or dislikes? So far it's looking like all are in favor... (WT-en) - Cacahuate 13:54, 12 February 2007 (EST)

Looks good. 1 small snag - sleep is looking dinky. strong support - (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 07:36, 13 February 2007 (EST)

• Don't support. This is an excellent guide but still has faults that keep it from being star quality. The maps aren't Wikivoyage maps, but copies of the public domain maps from the parks system. No vector graphics source for the maps. Also, the hikes under do (which I think are listed out very well) could use some directions to the trailhead, rather than just naming the trail. There's no address, hours, or contact info for the Zion Human History Museum under "Buy". No hours or prices for the Castle Dome Cafeteria. No prices for the Red Rock Grill. The paragraph on camping at Lava Point should be a listing, or integrated into the "Backcountry" section. The camping listings should be in the new listing format. I think the problems with this guide could be fixed quickly, though. --(WT-en) Evan 08:01, 13 February 2007 (EST)
  • I think I got everything you mentioned Evan, save for the maps. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:50, 13 February 2007 (EST)
  • I think this is ready now to be a star. It'd be nice to have the trailheads marked on the map, but I don't think perfect trail maps are necessary. We can leave those up to WikiOutdoors. --(WT-en) Evan 17:06, 22 February 2007 (EST)

• Don't support. Excellent article, except for those maps. That is however something that can be addressed. The US National Parks Service has got a lot of GIS data online for Zion (Search Zion at or go directly to the Zion directory ). Boundaries, camps, trails etc is all there. Getting that into SVG format and into a png that looks like a wikivoyage map will take a little bit of time, but it will be a lot easier than creating maps from scratch. Two questions: 1) Is the park boundaries really that regular? It looks like someone just drew a couple of connecting straight lines to define the park. 2) Can someone confirm the legal status of using the GIS data on the NPS site. Can we create derivative work and license it under CC-BY-SA?

Yes, the park boundaries really are that regular.

I'm not sure "Wikivoyage-style maps" are needed for an article to achieve Star status. Look at Yosemite National Park, the only map on there is a road map of Yosemite that is a public domain image from the NPS site. And yet, Yosemite is a star article. I'm not saying the map issue shouldn't be addressed, but I'm not sure if it gets in the way of declaring Zion a Star article. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 21:03, 13 February 2007 (EST)

Agreed. There's a real issue a s to what maps are appropriate for a Park article, and there may even be reasons to prefer an NPS map if one is available (assuming copyright issues don't interfere, which I'm still not convinced is true). Explicitly accepting them would be a change in policy, which should not be made cavalierly, but can be made if appropriate. To assess the appropriateness, I suggest that this part of the discussion continue at Talk:United States National Parks, where I've broached the subject. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:25, 13 February 2007 (EST)

I'll add some additional comments to Talk:United States National Parks. I really like this article and will change my vote from Don't support to Support if we can reach consensus that NPS maps are OK, or if we deceide they are not OK and replace them.

• Support. The article has a useful map that is licensed in the public domain; there isn't anything in the criteria that says a map has to be SVG or Wikivoyage branded, but there is nothing stopping us from adding such a map in the future. Regarding other issues that have been brought up, the star criteria is that an article "is essentially complete", but not necessarily perfect. The star nomination process is a great way for us to make minor corrections to already great articles, but I don't think a lack of perfection should be a reason for failing a nomination - delay maybe, but not fail. -- (WT-en) Ryan 23:32, 13 February 2007 (EST)

I think the level of quality would be: as good as we can get it, or as good as we know we can do. We're under no time constraint to get these guides out the door, and there's no pressure whatsoever to put "Star" stickers onto each and every article nominated. A lack of practical information that keeps travelers from using the guide (like missing listing info, addresses, hours, prices) isn't just nit-picking. It's the basic level of quality that travelers expect from any travel guide.

The map needs to be practically modifiable, and it needs to match our map style (just like the text needs to match our text style). I think it's pretty clear that such maps are better than public domain ones that we borrow from government sources; I think we also have existence proof that they're not impossible to make. The NPS ones are fine until we get a real Wikivoyage map done, of course. I'll update the star criteria to make this clear.

Let's not get confused about the symbol and the thing symbolized. If we put the "star" badge on an article that does not meet real star standards, we don't make that guide any better; we just cheapen what star status means. If our star definitions are unclear, it's important to keep in mind the essential definition of a star travel guide: that is, it's equivalent or better in quality than top-rank proprietary travel guides. --(WT-en) Evan 10:14, 14 February 2007 (EST)

• Support. An excellent article. I don't think that we should set the bar too high for maps - what is important is that they are of high quality and provide all the information you need. I think this particular main map is very good and probably provides more information than would be provided on a homemade png one. The updating of the star criteria to specify png maps is of course open to debate.... -- (WT-en) DanielC 17:12, 14 February 2007 (EST)

• Don't Support - and only because of the lack of a WT map... I think Evan said it well above, we're only cheapening Star Status by making these kind of exceptions, and across several recent conversations there seems to be a movement to tighten up the statuses and what they mean a bit... Guide is being applied a little to loosely, guide should be something that is as good as an LP or Let's Go guidebook article... and Star should exceed it, and be perfect in every way - Stars are examples of what a Wikivoyage article can be in all its shining glory, and I don't think that, ultimately, we're aiming towards borrowed maps - yes they'll do for now, but I think only as far as Guide Status (WT-en) - Cacahuate 04:50, 17 February 2007 (EST)

• I think I look at the problems everyone is having with this article, beside the map and they are all fixed. I am lost on this whole map issue. Those are the maps the NPS uses and they are accurate.(WT-en) FrankEM

Don't support - Sorry for changing my opinion yet again, but I don't support it simply because it doesn't have a Wikivoyage map. Once s'one makes that, I'll support. (WT-en) Upamanyuwikivoyage 10:59, 18 February 2007 (EST)

• Question - May an article stick around here for slightly longer then the normal 14 days? Seems that there is general consensus that this is star quality except for the maps. The map issue can probably be resolved within a week.

I was thinking the same thing... they often sit around an extra week anyway before somebody notices and does something about it... especially for this case, I would say yes, let's just wait until you finish the map... barring any further objections, I think everything else has been addressed, and when the map goes up you can also slap a {{starpark}} label to the bottom (WT-en) - Cacahuate 12:07, 20 February 2007 (EST)

• Support - I have updated Zion with WT maps, just need someone familiar with the place to check if those maps are accurate. Hiking trails still need to be added to the Canyon map, but that will happen soon. --(WT-en) NJR_ZA 16:57, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Excellent, I'm so glad we were able to work this out and not hold back this article solely for the map! And we did the right thing by waiting for the map instead of ignoring for the sake of a new star. I'm gonna gonna promote it now, since all things have been addressed and no further objections were raised. (WT-en) - Cacahuate 17:37, 22 February 2007 (EST)

Possibly the tidiest editing job I have yet seen on Wikivoyage. Every entry is properly formatted, informative, and appropriate, and the sections are all comprehensive without being overkill. The only drawback is sparse imagery, but it does have not one but two maps, and the single photo could easily be moved to the top of the page if necessary. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:09, 8 May 2007 (EDT)

• Support. I don't see any obvious room for improvement, with the possible exception of the image issue you've pointed out. Also, way back when I visited while looking at colleges I seem to remember that Stucchi's ice cream was a big deal - is that still operating in Ann Arbor? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:42, 9 May 2007 (EDT)

A friend who graduated from UM a few years ago confirms that Stucchi's is still a big deal. I'll try to extract data from her. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 21:16, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

• Almost support - I've added a few images, but I think it needs more to give a good visual sense of the place. A better opener image would be nice. I sent an email to User:(WT-en) Haem85 to upload the SVG if possible of the map, so that we can make sure everything listed in the article is on the map... and so that future changes can be made. It would also be nice if the listings were templated (are we making this a requirement yet?). I'll continue looking through it more soon, out of time now... but looks pretty darn good... – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 02:24, 10 May 2007 (EDT)

Glad to hear that people are enjoying the article. I've been waiting for warm weather to get here to take some more pictures around town, with a couple of shots in particular in mind, and yes, I'll be glad to upload the SVG when I get a chance. -- (WT-en) Haem85 21:50, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

If you have the time Haem85, can make sure that everything listed in the article is located on the map, since you seem to be really familiar with Ann Arbor? That's the main thing that I think might hold back this article from reaching star status at this point... – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 02:48, 16 May 2007 (EDT)

Everything? Okay, but I'm gonna need a bigger map! ;) Actually, given space constraints, I'm not sure it's feasible to include everything (I'd point out that Penticton and Santa Fe don't either) but I can certainly add to it if there's a need. Or, alternatively, redo the map and make it much larger so that I can fit more attractions on. We'll see how much time I have. :) I'd actually like to get up a town-overview map as well, anyway, so maybe I'll make cartography my goal for this weekend. — (WT-en) Haem85 17:29, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Hehe, well yeah, supposedly all things should be on there. if you're map covers the main parts of the city (I'm not familiar with the town) then it's probably fine... if something is on the outskirts of town I think it's ok not to be on the map. But certainly everything that falls within the boundaries of your map should be noted on it. If that map is just small portion of the town, then yeah, a broader map would be awesome! Glad to have you here now since you're obviously really familiar with the town! – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 20:29, 17 May 2007 (EDT)

Well, it took me long enough, but I've finally uploaded a (much) bigger version of the previous downtown map, with all the attractions in the area marked. If anybody has any tips on how to crop an SVG file in Inkscape, I'm all ears... otherwise I'll just upload my ragged-edged non-cropped version. -- (WT-en) Haem85 18:38, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

I don't think templated listings are a requirement, as long as the content in the templates is there and formatted correctly. Thanks for the images; they meet my semi-objection. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 23:09, 12 May 2007 (EDT)

Given past controversies on Star articles, it would be nice to have more people voting here, I'm not sure we should pass articles through when only 3 people are involved... – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 18:13, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

• Support I agree that more images would enhance this. Also agree on the tight editing. Along those lines, what's with omitting "St." for streets? A minor quibble, but seems inconsistent, even with referenced articles for nearby towns. Did we stop including xxx ^IATA and ICAO:xxxx on airports? </quibbles> (WT-en) OldPine 18:48, 13 May 2007 (EDT)

• Support – with the addition of the fabulously updated map by Carson, I think this article is worthy of star status. I would still love to see another image or two that sum up the town added, or that show downtown... something like this perhaps (though I've asked permission for that image and no response yet), but I don't think it's a deal breaker. Now's a good time to dissent, dissenters. We've already been thru the 14 days now, but maybe we should hold off a couple more and solicit more opinions. – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 22:43, 27 May 2007 (EDT)

• Don't support (yet). I agree that this is one of our best articles. Other than the following quibbles, I think that this article would make a very good star. Below are the few things I think still need cleaning up. --(WT-en) Evan 10:41, 28 May 2007 (EDT)
  • Most of the hours in listings don't match the MoS. "Open from 5PM-10PM Monday through Thursday, 5PM-11PM Friday and Saturday, and 4PM-9PM on Sunday." should be "M-Th 5PM-10PM, F-Sa 5PM-11PM, Su 4PM-9PM".
  • Many of the prices in listings don't match the MoS. "Admission $1" should just be "$1". Comments should be in a "priceextra" field or in parens, italicized, after the price.
  • The "public sculptures" listing should be broken into separate listings. If it's necessary to bundle them together, they could be in a separate subsection of "See".
  • The "Lurie Tower" and "Alley mural" listings need to be brought into line with the MoS.
  • The University of Michigan museums need to be separated into their own listings. Again, if necessary this could be a sub-section of "museums".
  • I don't think "take a walk through downtown Ann Arbor" is appropriate for "do". Sightseeing should be under "See", shopping should be under "Do".
  • There are a lot of bookstores listed under buy. Could they be pared down to a more selective list? (Not crucial.)
  • "Eat" needs more of a general introduction. The "Bagel Fragel" note needs to be in its own listing.
  • I don't like the "Local Favorites" section. Which locals? Whose favorites? "Lots of locals go here" should be part of the description of each restaurant, not a separate sub-section.
  • I'm not sure we should bother with a "Stay Safe" section if it's just one sentence. (Not crucial.)
  • I'm concerned that the "Sleep" section has very sparse information on most of the hotels. (Not crucial.)

Just FYI, I think (!) all these issues have been addressed now (thanks to everyone for your help on this!), except for two: the bookstore list (they're one of Ann Arbor's big "things", so for a variety of reasons I'm reluctant to trim it down, but if it's really unbalanced, I'll grit my teeth and try to decide which ones should go :) ) and the hotel list (I agree that it needs to be beefed up... might be a job for someone with more access to hotel info than I have!). I'm planning a massive photo blitz for this weekend, which will hopefully redress the image imbalance. BTW, am I correct in noticing that the new templates don't actually allow bold/italics/quotation marks inside the listing fields? — (WT-en) Haem85 13:48, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

I think the length of the bookstore list is reasonable for A2. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:45, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

• Not sure. That's one. big. map. :) (Just go ahead and upload the SVG, untrimmed. Future editors can also crop it when they expert to PNG.) The Eat and Sleep sections aren't broken down by price, but by menu or by location. I understand the reasons for doing them that way, but aren't the price categories part of the MoS? And the Star criteria say that following the MoS is required unless there's an exceptional reason not to. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 11:32, 28 May 2007 (EDT) Support. There's still room for some improvement in a few places (as noted by Evan), but perfection is not a criterion. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 17:52, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

• Not until the eat and sleep sections are split into budget, mid range, splurge rather than by geographical or type. For an article to be a star, it's Layout and listing formats either match the manual of style exactly or are the exception that proves the rule. So until that's done, we can't star this. But apart from that, this is star material! -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 17:27, 28 May 2007 (EDT)

Support - my main objection has been rectified. -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 07:23, 5 June 2007 (EDT)

I don't see that necessarily as a disqualification in this particular case, because Ann Arbor isn't really a "big" city, and the template for the "non-big" city doesn't require this breakdown. I agree that the list of eating places is long enough (in no small part because of its college-town status) that the TTCF principle argues for doing it, but if the other issues that people have raised get addressed and this is the only one that remains, I don't see it as a show-stopper. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:28, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

• Support but that map png is too big—I find it hard to use because it requires so much scrolling. Would it be possible to enlarge the symbols a bit (maybe 2x) and then export a smaller png? --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald ^Talk 18:00, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Ah! It hadn't hit me that I could decrease the size of the output (duh). I'm not sure if I can increase the size of the symbols (at least, not if there needs to be one for every attraction) but I did reduce the map by 1/3 and I think it helps. Reducing by half seemed a little too hard to read, but I can probably shrink it a little further if it would help. — (WT-en) Haem85 18:43, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

I still think the symbols could be enlarged, even in the crowded downtown area, by 1.5–2 times. That would allow you to decrease the map export size even more. But then again, while this would be optimal, it's not crucial. And I don't know of any good way to increase all the symbols without going through the mind-numbing tedium of going one by one... --(WT-en) Peterfitzgerald ^Talk 18:51, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Well, I'll give it a shot :) I'll try it on the downtown area and see if everything fits. (I just want to be sure there's room in case anything else needs to be added later.) After all, what's a little mind-numbing tedium between friends! ;) — (WT-en) Haem85 18:55, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

Another option would be to break the map up into sections, maybe a zoomed-in map of downtown and maybe Kerrytown, and another smaller-scale map showing the outlying listings. - (WT-en) Todd VerBeek 19:02, 30 May 2007 (EDT)

• Bump. This has been under discussion for quite a while, and a great deal of effort has been expended to address the issues raised. Can anyone see reasons now not to star it? If not, I'm going to do so. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 23:44, 9 June 2007 (EDT)

I just finished MoS'ing the hours... but many of the bookstores and a few drink listings still don't have them at all... I've been meaning to call and get them, but never get around to it before closing time. Maybe someone on the east coast can take a few minutes for a few phone calls? – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 04:30, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

As I discovered when Star-ifying Santa Fe, those are two classes of places that may not have fixed hours... -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 12:01, 10 June 2007 (EDT)

• And it was so! Congrats to all those who helped Star-ify this article. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 20:15, 14 June 2007 (EDT)

Some of the other Chicago districts might be on their way to stardom, but I think Bronzeville is already there. I really can't think of anything else that would improve this article, aside from maybe a few new photographs that I'd like to take when back in town (but the ones in the article are more than adequate). I think the article is perfectly formatted according to the MoS and there isn't anything missing that I'm aware of, aside from some run-down establishments that I wouldn't want anyone to visit. But who knows, perhaps the prose is not tight enough. Please let me know what you think! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:16, 19 July 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Extremely nice article. I didn't see any obvious areas for improvement after glancing over it, although the "Do" and "Buy" sections (and maybe some of the others) might be improved by adding an introductory paragraph that gives a general overview of what the scene is like. Otherwise this looks good, and the map looks particularly great. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:32, 19 July 2007 (EDT)

  The newly-added intros are great - a quick overview that gives an idea of the highlights. Full support from me. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 22:45, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Exceptional work on an undeservedly over-looked destination. Remarkably thorough - I'd be very surprised if a better guide to Bronzeville existed in any form. And that map is a stunner. I'd love to see this article supplemented with a walking tour. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 21:44, 19 July 2007 (EDT)

Just a little update, in case other people are watching this discussion and haven't made up their minds: I have added short introductory paragraphs to all sections, but am holding off on a walking itinerary. I haven't walked around the sites myself (I've only visited with a car) and I'm just not sure how long a walk it would be. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:21, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

I'd really like to see all of Chicago become a star, not just a few districts of it... (WT-en) Jpatokal 22:34, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

Patience my friend. (WT-en) Marc and I are working hard to make the whole city a star, but in the meantime I could use the positive reinforcement for some of the districts I have slaved over. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:48, 26 July 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Excellent article. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 01:12, 27 July 2007 (EDT)

Last call for comments before we star this one - 14 days are up today. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:36, 3 August 2007 (EDT)

• Support. I just made a pass-through to fix a few remaining typos, and came away impressed by the tremendous work you guys did on this. Make it so! -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 13:26, 4 August 2007 (EDT)

OK, after my 20-odd nit-picking edits today and a thorough map update, I think this article is finally up to star status. Again, there are a few photos I have in mind to add/substitute, but I'll have to wait until I'm back in the area to take them, and the article doesn't need them anyway. For some reason, I'm not quite as satisfied with this district as with Bronzeville—if you figure out why this is, please let me know! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 02:39, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

I'm confused here. We have two districts of Chicago currently nominated for star status, but the article for the city itself is currently only tagged as usable. Looks guide-ish to me, but I don't know the area well enough to judge. Checking three districts at random, I got two guides and one usable. Could we get to the point where we have one big star for the whole city? (WT-en) Pashley 08:32, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

We downgraded the main Chicago article at the outset of dividing the city into districts. I think the content of the article itself is solid (having written a lot of it), but the grading criteria for Huge City articles says that for a Huge City to be a guide, all of its district articles must be at least usable, and for a Huge City to be a star, all of its district articles must be at least guides. So we have one district left to make usable (Chicago/Southwest Side), and then we need to push the rest forward to guide status and do a little more work on the main article before we make it a star (which is our goal). (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:47, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

Support. The depth of information is terrific (without being excessive - I like that you pruned a couple of the more mundane listings), and the descriptions give a sense of insight from an insider. The map covers a lot of ground and does so well, another impressive job. I'd like to see a more compelling opening - it's pretty dry until the descriptions of Oakwood and Kenwood in the neighborhoods section. And it's not clear if we can visit any of the listings in Kenwood architecture - I assume not, since you tend to be thorough with these things, but I think it should be explicit. Are there opening/closing hours for Jackson Park and/or the places within, like the Japanese Garden? (Is that free?) Is the University still doing DOC films? As I recall, those are free or cheap, and tend to be great selections. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 10:40, 25 July 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Excellent article. Also support the strategy of a huge city achieving stardom district by district. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 01:15, 27 July 2007 (EDT)

Last call for comments...no dissent so far, but it would be good to get more opinions on this one. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 12:22, 7 August 2007 (EDT)

Umm, temporary don't support. I want to address Marc's points before this gets starred, Doc films should really be in there. I will do this today and, provided there aren't any other objections, will drop my own and star the article before the 14 days are up! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:05, 8 August 2007 (EDT)

Ok, this article is ready. Speak now or forever hold your peace, until you feel like revising the status. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:04, 8 August 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Better late than never. Keep up the good work guys! – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 02:14, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Yep. Thanks for chiming in! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 02:34, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

Ladies and gentlemen, the latest offering from the Chicago district factory, featuring lost treasure, lurid tales, and a shiny new map by Peter. I'm pleased with the way the article covers five of the biggest tourist draws in Chicago (the three museums, Soldier Field, and McCormick Place) and situates them in the midst of neighborhoods with more to be discovered, which print guides haven't done. Although it's always possible that something else may pop up, I believe the Buy/Eat/Drink/Sleep listings are comprehensive, save for places I decided not to list.

What do you think? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 08:58, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

• Support. It's a fun read and I'm pretty sure nothing worth writing about has been left out. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 02:27, 10 August 2007 (EDT)
• Support. Looks fantastic! The only thing I noticed was that the picture of the dolphin show is a little dark, but I don't think that's reason enough to disqualify the article for Star status. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:49, 10 August 2007 (EDT)
• Support. Very impressive guide. -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 08:16, 11 August 2007 (EDT)
• Support. One suggestion for improvement, however, would be to highlight the neighborhoods on the map - it wasn't clear to me where Printer's Row and the other neighborhoods were located, and since many of the attractions are listed by neighborhood that information would be helpful. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:48, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Good idea; I might try and do this with all the Chicago district maps, come to think of it. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 13:59, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

• Marginal. This is a really good article, properly formatted, etc., but one weakness is TMI -- Too Much Information. Some of the attraction entries are ponderously long and really could use some tightening up. I'm not sure whether that's a disqualification as far as Star status is concerned, but I'd like to see some improvements. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 15:15, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I'm not sure that I see what you mean. The museums listed rank among Chicago's most visited sites, and probably do deserve a significant mention. The Prairie Ave section of town could probably have its own itinerary article, if written by someone particularly knowledgeable; moreover, I think good information about this area is essential, as the only other option for a visitor would be a guided tour. But which entries in particular are you referring to? --Peter 15:25, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

That hadn't occurred to me, but I'm generally willing to believe that anything that's written well can probably be written just as well in 3/4 of the words. I've tried to tighten some of the longer sections. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:24, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

An example is the entry for the Marshall Field Jr. Mansion, which occupies an awful lot of space for an attraction that isn't even open. There are others that are similarly verbose. Yes, describe the museums, etc., but for all but the most exceptional/distinctive entries, many of the details of things like history can and should be entrusted to the referenced links, unless there's something about them that the traveler needs to know (for example, IMO the Shedd entry really does need to be as long as you have it, since the whole thing is useful to the traveler). If an entry gets beyond about 5 full lines of text, there's a TMI possibility, IMO; if the entries routinely get beyond this limit, TMI is very likely. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 16:35, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I've chopped out 2100 characters. I hope that helps. How much history to give, though, is tricky. We supply those external links, but aren't we supposed to be producing guides that can be used independently of them? A little bit of history is sometimes useful to sell the place as a worthwhile destination. (It is to me as a traveler, anyway.) Regardless of WTP, not everyone who uses these guides is going to be able to click through; nor, in some cases (as with Field Jr.), does the external link give the whole story. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:58, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

Thanks, that helped. Support now. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 18:39, 11 August 2007 (EDT)

I think for the most part it's ready. It's got a map now, all of the listings follow the MoS, and being someone who lives in ABQ I can assure you that it covers everything. I admit some of the listings still need a bit of work, but they can be taken care of quickly. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 15:51, 19 August 2007 (EDT)

Support. It feels comprehensive and it's well-organized. Great images, too. I would suggest leading with that beautiful balloon photo instead of the bland, slightly-tilted skyline panorama. The 'See' and 'Do' listings could be alphabetized, and it'd be good to have more listings for specific 'Buy' places. (Whereas there are more grocery store listings than you really need.) But none of that gives me any serious reservations. This is a really nice article and one of the best we have to offer. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:58, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

I might as well just get rid of that downtown pic. Our skyline isn't really anything to behold, lol. And I organized the See/Do listing alphabetically. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:27, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Great! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:36, 22 August 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Wonderful article and a map so street-filled it would inspire awe and fear in the heart of any would be mapmaker. Practically deserves a "speedy star." My only suggestion is to move the left-aligned images over to the right, as they can cause some strange formatting issues when displayed on different display resolutions—on my screen the "Do" header is floating around the middle of the page. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:57, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

I see what you mean with the "Do" header. What if I just adjust the picture a bit? Does that help? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:28, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

Yes that did help. I still prefer the images on the right because that allows me to skim articles quickly down the left side, but if you prefer to keep them as is, please feel free to do so. Great article! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:01, 21 August 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Practically a perfect example of how a large-but-not-huge city should be treated. One minor quibble: the "in-line skating" and "mountain biking" sections under "Do" are curiously wimpy compared to all the good stuff around them. John, you're the local; what do you suggest for these? They're leftovers from a very early version of the article, and IMO could just be deleted unless there's something notable about doing these particular activities in Albuquerque. -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 22:44, 25 August 2007 (EDT)

Yeah, there's really nothing notable about either of those activities in ABQ. I guess mountain biking has it's place, but whatever we want to say about bike trails we could just fit into the "By Bike" section of Get Around. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 04:04, 26 August 2007 (EDT)

Okay, I've changed it, I think it looks pretty good now. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:15, 26 August 2007 (EDT)

Probably the most-touristed area of Chicago, particularly for shopping's sake. We have a ton of Buy listings (which weren't easy to come by on my empty wallet and absent fashion sense) and jam-packed Eat sections as well. I work around here, so I walk past many of these places on a fairly regular basis, meaning that I'm confident the listings are reasonably up-to-date. (And I realize I'm jinxing myself by saying so.) If nothing else, check out the gigantic raft of listings that Peter's map has to contend with. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 03:21, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

• Support. This was a tough article, but I feel quite confident about it now. Critical feedback is definitely appreciated, though, because this is arguably the most important district article in Chicago—I'd like to see it done perfectly. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:42, 28 August 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Beautiful article. Great pictures, good listings, great map! (WT-en) PerryPlanet 23:04, 29 August 2007 (EDT)
• Support. You fellows did an great job. Wish I could do as well! (WT-en) 2old 10:28, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

Last call for comments. Please chime in if you haven't already. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:50, 10 September 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Yep, another beauty from the Star factory twins. MoS looks perfect, pictures complement the article, and you even give advice on free internet at the Apple store... seems you've thought of it all – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 00:25, 11 September 2007 (EDT)

I was not planning to nominate this because I felt too unsure of what travel topic stars are supposed to look like. Indeed, I was more worried that it might get voted for deletion as a non-article. But I figure that as long as we're reviewing travel topic star-ification, we might as well have more fuel for discussion.

This topic is fairly narrow, and while it still might be a stretch to say that this article covers the topic "fully," there are certainly no obvious omissions and any more coverage would be over-saturation. Listings match the MoS, but layout? It is not possible nor desirable to try and come up with a layout in the MoS for every type of travel topic. In any rate, this layout makes sense to me.

I'm curious to see what opinions are on this one; in my view there aren't really any changes that could significantly improve it. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:21, 30 August 2007 (EDT)

Support. In terms of the description of what a star topic should look like, the article appears to cover the topic well enough (although you might need someone with at least some knowledge of Chicago to confirm that though!), the listings match the MoS and the layout used works for this article, which is what matters - travel topics are incredibly diverse so there's no sense in creating a standard layout. The annotated photos of the skyline are the equivalent of the required map. -- (WT-en) Tim (writeme!) 13:05, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Support. The article seems to do a great job of covering the subject, at least as far as I can tell having never been to Chicago. All the buildings listed appear in at least once of the pictures, so it looks pretty complete. The only thing I can suggest is to find addresses for the Dirksen Federal Building and the Metropolitan Correctional Center. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:47, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Good catch, I've added the addresses. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:26, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Support. I live in Chicago and know this subject reasonably well — and this article covers the topic better than I know it. Good mix of data and trivia, a great idea well-executed. As the article acknowledges, though, there are a lot of new buildings going up right now — the photos will have to be refreshed every so often. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:46, 31 August 2007 (EDT)

Support. Great job. It will benefit any visitor (like me). (WT-en) 2old 10:30, 1 September 2007 (EDT)

I feel like there just aren't enough star districts for Chicago, so here's one more. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:08, 18 October 2007 (EDT)

• Support, after taking a quick skim, I think it looks great! All the listings look complete, the maps and pictures are good, and there's lots of good info. Though, It does surprise me that there's only two places to sleep in the whole district, but if that is indeed the case then very well. (And no, there's just aren't enough star districts for Chicago. :-) I wouldn't want to see you stop until the whole city is one big, glorious, shining star!) (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:33, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Nobody embodies the MoS more than Gorilla Fitzgerald – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 19:00, 19 October 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Yup, this is a comprehensive one. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 14:10, 27 October 2007 (EDT)

Any more comments before this one is called? Both of us are grateful for feedback... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:20, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

You'll never guess which city this itinerary covers. This is the most heavily touristed part of the city. The itinerary includes a marvelously detailed street map by Peter, and of the three districts it references (Chicago/Near North, Chicago/Loop, Chicago/Near West Side), one is a Star and two are Guides. What say you? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 01:50, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

• Support. I suppose this superb itinerary (supplied by Marc) will not soon superannuate nor see its supremacy superseded or otherwise become supplanted by superior star-noms. So let us not superimpose superfluous supplications for supplementals, lest they suppress our support of star status for this splendid, superlative piece. I'll stop now. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:06, 1 November 2007 (EDT)

• Support. I says the same support for said supreme article. Such superlative skyscraping structures! (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:13, 1 November 2007 (EDT)
• Support, but would it have been possible to stop sooner? :-) -- (WT-en) Bill-on-the-Hill 22:23, 2 November 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Well written and sounds like it gives a good quick snapshot of what the city is about... we need more itineraries like this for other cities... and as far as I'm concerned any article that references Adventures in Babysitting is a shoe-in for star status – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 18:18, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

Interestingly enough, there is only one other article to reference this 80's classic, and it is indeed already a star... Conspiracy afoot? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 04:10, 4 November 2007 (EST)

• Support. Another fine article by the Dynamic Duo. (WT-en) 2old 15:24, 7 November 2007 (EST)

Last call on this one... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:47, 15 November 2007 (EST)

I feel a little weird nominating this, considering I have never been to the South, much less Charlotte, but I'll go ahead anyway.

A little while ago, the Charlotte article was nominated for Star status, and despite having good info it failed the nomination due to a number of large issues. Recently, I took a look at it and while the overall city article is still suffering from those same issues, a lot of the district articles are in great shape.

So I bring you Uptown Charlotte, a fine article that really only needed some MoS touch-ups and a map to whip it into shape. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:22, 3 November 2007 (EDT)

• Support. Great article, nice work on bringing it into the MoS mainstream! Our Charlotte guides are really pretty fantastic, and it's nice to see the city moving closer towards stardom. Only one cavil, not big enough to keep me from supporting: I would like to see some more travel-relevant information in the understand section to give travelers a quick overview of what downtown Charlotte offers to the visitor. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:56, 4 November 2007 (EST)

• Support. Looking good! There's something that bugs me a little about the buy section, but I can't say what I'd do to fix it... hmmm... nonetheless, nice work! – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 02:42, 6 November 2007 (EST)

I agree that the Buy section looks rather confusing. I was a little disoriented by it when I did the map. I've just edited it for a slightly different layout, does this work better? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:37, 6 November 2007 (EST)

Ya know, I'm wondering if the listing of all the businesses in the shopping centers is a bit much... especially with no descriptions... I think definitely McDonald's, Starbucks, etc should go... maybe it would be better in paragraph form listing the special things like Dean & Deluca, rather than look like a mini-yellow pages of the shopping center? – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 00:08, 7 November 2007 (EST)

• Almost support, and thanks to Cacahaute for saying what I planned to. I'd drop things like Dunkin' Donuts from the restaurant listing, and try to scrounge up hours for more of the restaurants. I'm concerned that the Buy section is so much lighter than the rest - virtually no phone/hours/address listings, and the descriptions are thin. Overall, though, this is a good, confidently written guide. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 00:43, 7 November 2007 (EST)

I've made some big changes to the Buy and Eat sections, does this work? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 13:39, 7 November 2007 (EST)

Yes, it does. I would also suggest removing the pharmacies, and only list grocery stores if they sell something special (i.e. rare imported food) or are basically the only food option in the area, which obviously isn't the case here. Otherwise, looks good. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:25, 7 November 2007 (EST)

I dunno, why don't we keep the grocery stores and pharmacies? If people are staying in Uptown, they might want to know where these sorts of basic services are. I know I would sure appreciate information about a grocery store. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 23:01, 9 November 2007 (EST)

My experience - and others who know more should disagree - has been that we generally don't list grocery stores unless they provide some unique service that sets them apart from other grocery stores. We provide listings for restaurants because we know this particular restaurant is good, but unless they're also serving take-out lunch, one grocery store's Doritos are as good as the next store's. It keeps Eat listings from getting cluttered and places more focus on the unique places. Travelers looking to stock their hotel room with a trip to the grocery store are on the rare side and don't necessarily need our guidance to do it. But that's just my opinion - it doesn't hold up my vote of Support. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:54, 10 November 2007 (EST)

• Support When I was driving to the South on a semi-regular basis years ago, Charlotte was my first spot to take a driving break. The article is much better than I remember Charlotte actually being. You may want to consider moving the Speed Street info from Charlotte to Charlotte/Uptown. NASCAR is VERY big in this area and should have more mentions in Wikivoyage, including the United States page. If you just had a photo of the Abe Lincoln statue standing in front of the Statehouse, the article would be complete. I always parked in front of Abe for a short snooze, that's snooze not snort. (WT-en) 2old 15:18, 7 November 2007 (EST)

Might be best to table the O'Hare nomination until those concerns are addressed - so here's another to chew on, as Chicago can't let Charlotte have sole Uptown supremacy. We've got Charlie Chaplin, Al Capone, Hillary Clinton and The Clash in there, which covers rather a lot of ground. Let me know what you think. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 13:44, 1 December 2007 (EST)

Hey, back off Windy City, Uptown belongs to Charlotte, no one else! (LOL, just kidding) I love this article. It's very well written and very thorough, it makes a great read even if you're not traveling to Chicago. I absolutely cracked up when I read this line:

With some effort, you can mentally reverse the decayed grandeur and imagine the station as it was in 1923, when it replaced an inferior structure built by some dink named Frank Lloyd Wright.

Man, I was howling when I read that. Now I did notice a couple of very minor issues...

• In the intro there's a minor grammar error: "Years of cheap living created a diverse community that's still resident there today".
• There was no hours for the Vinh Phat BBQ, Gigio's, or the Grace African Restaurant.
• The Dong Thanh, Thai Pastry and Spacca Napoli weren't listed on the map.

Other than that, it looks perfect. SUPPORT. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 18:43, 1 December 2007 (EST)

Thanks. Grace African Restaurant is quoting our review on their website - that's awesome. I called around to add the missing hours. I don't see the grammar error - 'resident' can be used as an adjective as well, if that's what you're referring to. I'll trust Peter to cram the missing listings into the map. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:21, 1 December 2007 (EST)

• Support. This is one of my favorite articles now on WT—nice work Marc. I'll be sure to get Spacca Napoli on that map (not sure how missed that), but Dong Thanh and Thai Pastry are both located within the buy listing, Tai Nam Market Center. This is already indicated in the "directions" tags in the listings, but perhaps there is a way to make this more clear? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:17, 2 December 2007 (EST)

Nah, don't worry about it. I think if I had actually bothered to read the listing, it would have been clear to me. :P (WT-en) PerryPlanet 12:58, 2 December 2007 (EST)

Final call on this one... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:49, 14 December 2007 (EST)

We don't have any star articles on the West Side of Chicago, only North and South, so I'd like to put this one up for consideration. Pilsen is off the beaten path for most travel guides, but it has an attraction that should be high on any visitors' list (National Museum of Mexican Art), and I think we've covered the art galleries, the shops, and the restaurants quite thoroughly. I had a lot of fun there, although Peter's map will make anyone else's visit a lot easier than mine was. Your comments, please... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:17, 14 December 2007 (EST)

Another beautiful Chicago article! You guys have raised the bar for what Wikivoyage guides can become. Now just a couple of things (and I was more careful this time around): I didn't see hours for El Paraiso Bakery, and no prices for El Paraiso Bakery, Panaderia Tortilleria Nuevo Leon Bakery, Tacos Palas, and Cafe Mestizo (the last one might not be a problem as it's down in the drink section, but the other two cafes have prices so I guess Cafe Mestizo might as well...). Other than that, this guide is the absolute definition of perfection. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:19, 14 December 2007 (EST)

• Support. One of the smaller districts in the Chicago guide, and I think we honestly have everything worth covering in the article! I added pricing info for the above mentioned listings, except for El Paraiso Bakery—I think it's too hard to give an accurate idea of price since there is bound to be large variations in the kinds of things one would buy at a bakery (a cake? one cookie?). Not that this bears on star status, but Pilsen is a cool neighborhood. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:11, 14 December 2007 (EST)

It may be presumptuous to nominate an article having just written it, but hey, I've always wanted to! I think this meets all the criteria, but I would of course welcome criticism. On which note I have to observe, if the saying "everyone's a critic" has any truth, then everyone has been rather quiet lately on this page ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 05:34, 15 December 2007 (EST)

• Support. We just don't have enough star itineraries. And this is one heck of a guide! There is just one, teensy, minor problem: nothing links here. How are people going to find this absolutely magnificent article? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 11:51, 15 December 2007 (EST)

Good point. We'll work mentions into the main Chicago article and the Chicago/Loop article. Support. He's got this topic nailed down, including plenty that I didn't know (for all of the time I spent working down there), and a clear, easy route to enjoy it. I'd suggest Freeform as a lead photo, though, given its acclaimed status within the article and an easier form to grasp (compared to the more jumbled Town-Ho). (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 15:25, 15 December 2007 (EST)

I'm tempted to leave the Town-Ho up at the top, both for egotistical reasons (the photo bears a strong personal touch, whereas I've seen others take a similar photo of Freeform), and because I like the statement it makes to put the most controversial work in the tour at the top. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:39, 17 December 2007 (EST)

I believe this long article is completely MoSed, has several nice maps, lots of good pictures, and (IMO) better quality information than any other guide to the city I've seen. That and every district article is at least guide status. If others agree, this will become our second huge city star. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Support. By the numbers, Chicago has 22 district/airport articles (seven stars, fifteen guides - not counting the nominations below), 2 itineraries (both stars) and a travel topic (also a star), all of which have maps. The main article itself has a great overview map, district map, and even a crime map. The writing is lively and ties the areas of the city together, it's up to date, and I'm quite proud of the work we've done with it. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)

• Support. You guys have done an absolutely magnificent job on this city. You've set a new standard for our large cities with thorough listings, great pictures and maps, and engaging writing. I don't think it would be much of an exaggeration to say that this is probably the best guide on Chicago ever written, period. And congratulations on getting it through Wikivoyage Press! You guys have really outdone yourselves and done a great service to both Chicago and Wikivoyage. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Anyone else care to pipe in and just say "support?" This would be only the second huge city star—kind of a big deal by WT standards, I think. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)

On a second look at the page, I've noticed that the Get In by train section seems oddly lacking. Not a big enough deal to make me change my vote of support, but I feel like there could be more info there (Addresses? Phone numbers? List of Amtrak routes which serve the station? I dunno...).

That's a fair critique. I'm avoiding listing Amtrak routes, because that would quickly turn into a list of all major US cities save perhaps Las Vegas, oddly. The lack of a Metra System map was actually kind of glaring, in retrospect, but I've put that in now, as well as the main out-of-Chicagoland termini, and phone #s for both companies. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:52, 6 March 2008 (EST)

Awesome, I'm satisfied now. :) (WT-en) PerryPlanet 18:13, 6 March 2008 (EST)

This is the downtown commercial district and the center of Chicago. For a long time it was a weak link, but it's now well filled out & supported by two walking itineraries. It's also got one of my favorite maps. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Support. I spend a fair amount of time here and the article feels comprehensive to me. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)

• Support. After a very thorough scan of the article, I could only find one teeny, tiny thing: the Russian Tea Time restaurant is not covered in the map. Other than that, flawless. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Whoops—that's a personal favorite of mine too (if the touty description didn't already give that away)! Fixed. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 02:32, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Marc wrote a great article to Chicago's hoppin'est neighborhood. It's a good read, complete, and up to star status. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Support. (Thanks.) (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)

• Support. Looks excellent, save for the "Bongo Room" restaurant, which I can't seem to find on the map. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Should be fixed too. Thank you for catching these! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 02:32, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Hmm. It appears we've put a star together for the frat boys. We can at least console ourselves with the knowledge that the article also includes Old Town, anyway. And it is, I think, a great and complete article. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Support. I think it does well by visitors with many different interests. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)

• Support. Looks flawless, not to mention one of the most colorful neighborhoods I have ever heard of. You got the famous shooting of a famous bank robber, and a hot dog joint where the main attraction isn't the food, but profanity. How can you beat this? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)

I actually forgot about this one, thinking we had already starred it. Unquestionably the best existing guide to this section of the city. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:25, 18 February 2008 (EST)

Support. I live here and feel there are a lot of unknown gems in this article. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:42, 18 February 2008 (EST)

• Support. Can't find any flaws with this one. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 01:42, 19 February 2008 (EST)

Seafood! Alcatraz! Sea lions! Cable cars! Streetcars! Um...chocolate! And, um...sourdough bread?

It's been a while since we had a star nomination, so here's an article me and User:(WT-en) Asterix worked very hard on to bring up to speed. As far as I can tell, it's nothing short of a perfect district guide. Thorough, complete, informative, and just plain good. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 16:41, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

I'm inclined to Support, as it looks thorough and detailed. There are some minor issues with capitalization - when you use 'the Wharf' to refer to Fisherman's Wharf, do you want to capitalize 'Wharf' or not? That's a style choice and either answer is fine, but it should be consistent. It'd be ideal if there were more Budget Eat/Sleep options, but that may not be possible. I'd suggest spinning out the last paragraph of the Understand section - about the scams - to a 'Stay safe' section at the end of the article. Otherwise, congrats on reaching a milestone with your hard work! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:20, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

Also would Support. Agree on the capitalization and would add "City" as one that might be lowercased, even more so than Wharf. I like the rest of Gorilla's suggestions as well. Nice going, guys. --(WT-en) OldPine 17:30, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

I would say go ahead and capitalize 'Wharf', it seems consistent to me. Unfortunately there just isn't many good Budget Eat/Sleep options in this district, being the tourist haven it is. As for creating a 'Stay Safe' section, that sounds fine. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 17:34, 7 June 2008 (EDT)

• Just one thing. Great, comprehensive, and perfectly formatted article. The only real recommendation I have regards the double-listing of the Buena Vista Cafe under eat & drink—I'd prefer that you decide which is the more important recommendation, and then just mention in the description that it also has a nice bar, or is also a worthy dining destination (ditto The Cannery & Pier 39). You can also use section intros to mention, say, in the drink section that such and such eat listing also has a great bar. The main thing, I think, should be to avoid content duplication, which looks sloppy compared to the perfectly polished shine the article otherwise shows. That's the only thing holding up my support.
  
  Aside from that, a couple of cavils: First, you guys used an "average price" for the hotel rooms—what sort of average is that? Median/mode/mean? And of what, double rooms or all rooms? Personally, I tried to get around that ambiguity by listing price ranges. Second, you listed Ghirardelli Square under buy in the article, but under see on the map. Third (and most trivial), while it's not a policy, there is a vague Wikivoyage preference for the serial comma, which I believe you eschewed. In any rate, fantastic work, and I hope to see more SF articles popping up on this page in the future! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 01:17, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

Wow, how did I miss the Buena Vista Cafe? Well, I'll take it out of the Drink section, since on the map its listed as a Eat place.

Good point on the "average prices", I'll go ahead and find price ranges for them. As for listing Ghirardelli Square as a See on the map, it's because in the article it's also listed as a See (it's at the very bottom of the section) as well as a Buy. This kind of comes back to the issue of duplicate listings, of course Pier 39 and The Cannery do the exact same thing.

I didn't know there was a preference for serial commas (which makes me regret all the times I eliminated them...), so I'll go ahead and put them in. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 02:16, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

Okay, so the duplicate listings issue is taken care of, with the exception of the tiny issue of Pier 39 being a See and Do listing, but I'm not sure I want to mess with it seeing as they have separate content underneath the listing, which actually fits the section they're in. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 03:03, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

Looks great! I'd still prefer not to see the Pier 39 info duplicated word for word like that (it clashes with my parsimony devotion)—you could get around this by creating a section header for Pier 39-located listings, an introductory note for the "buy" section, or scratch the contact details & description for the second instance & replace them with an in-article link to the see section (i.e., ([[#see|see above]])). But it's not so big a deal since "see" & "do" listings all wind up under the same list on the map key. Anyway, you've done more than enough to make me content. Support. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:10, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

Nevertheless, I'll take you up on your suggestion to eliminate the details from any second listings. I've fixed the Do version of Pier 39 with a simple "content under See section" kind of message, and now there's no duplicates no duplicates no duplicates. :P (WT-en) PerryPlanet 03:50, 9 June 2008 (EDT)

• Support. Looks nice guys, good work! A question... what is meant by "Pier 39 is an accessible facility? Handicap accessible? Also in the Contact section the prices using the hyphen to separate the price and time allotted, to me, looks almost like a price range... minor quibble... but maybe "$3 for 20 min" is less confusing at first glance? Anyway, good work! – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 12:02, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

Good catches. I don't know what is meant by "Pier 39 is an accessible facility" either (probably means it's handicap accessible, but then again so is everything else in Fisherman's Wharf), so I'll just eliminate that sentence. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:38, 8 June 2008 (EDT)

We're almost at the end of the fourteen days, is there anything else anyone wants to add here? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:43, 21 June 2008 (EDT)

Ok, so here is a district article from SF that many contributors worked on including; User:(WT-en) Vkw, User:(WT-en) PerryPlanet, User:(WT-en) OliverBuchino, User:(WT-en) Wrh2, as well as some really great stuff form some anon IPs. Is it a star? (WT-en) Asterix 13:20, 18 July 2008 (EDT)

• Support. It's a really well done guide. There are still a few listings in the Buy and Drink sections which are lacking hours, and we'll need those to make the article perfect, but that shouldn't be too hard to get. As far as I can tell, this guide has extensive listings (as it should, considering where we're talking about!), good descriptions, and a lot of great information. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 22:15, 19 July 2008 (EDT)

Am I seriously the only person who's commented on this? Surely someone else has something to say? At least a word of "Support"? (WT-en) PerryPlanet 20:05, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

Hey, we've got 14 days right? I haven't forgotten—just haven't had time to give it a good look yet ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:37, 25 July 2008 (EDT)

• One objection — listings are not in order!

The default/most common order is alphabetical, and that's what I'd recommend. I'm pretty sure the only other acceptable order is geographical, like the sights in San Francisco/Fisherman's Wharf, although that is usually not possible. That's the only objection I have large enough to hold up star status. But yeah, the article is fantastic (and huge), and I've got a hunch this is where I'll head first next time I'm in San Francisco. Just reading this made me so hungry I had to drive over to Chicago's Chinatown for food before making my edits.

Actually, this was deliberate, and I spent a bit of time making sure the listings roughly ran from a south (chinatown) to north (north Beach) direction. I also listed the reason why in the article under "Get Around"...There are many more parks, public seating, and cafes with curbside tables in North Beach, so why not see Chinatown first. That way, by the time you'd made it through its bustling streets you'll be ready for a coffee and a sit down in North Beach. So in actuality it's in geographical order. Is this ok? (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Ah, ok, so long as there is an order to it, I'll support. I do recommend adding a quick note in italics (probably at the top of the "see" section), explaining that the listings are in rough order from south to north. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Other less crucial things:

1) The article currently uses multiple formats to convey when a listing is closed for a specific day of the week (e.g., "closed on Mondays"). I'd recommend leaving such info out completely, since it should be obvious that any day not mentioned could then be assumed closed. (E.g., T-Th 5AM-10PM, F-Sa 5AM-midnight, Su 10AM-10PM.) But if you prefer to leave those references to closed days, that should be done in a standard fashion throughout the article.

OK, easy fix (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

2)Did Kerouac stay here? With his friend or in a flophouse? If so, it would be great to call out the building or at least the street where he was living. On that note, perhaps it would be worth doing to list at least one of the SRO flophouses under "sleep," since someone visiting after reading On the Road might be curious to spend a week in one.

As regards Kerouac - Not sure he stayed in an SRO in which case I wonder is it worth adding one? I know that he lived at 29 Russell st...but that's actually in Nob Hill area. I did add the places where he drank (Trieste + Vesuvios) and hungout (Kerouac Alley + City Lights)..not sure where else stayed and specifically at an SRO??...I'll have to look this one up. I thought I had one SRO in here but now I see it was in Civic Center. Perhaps it is worth adding one as you say.(WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Great, given how expensive San Francisco can be, I'd gladly slum it in a transient hotel for $160/week in a cool neighborhood. I've added it to the map. Also, a link to Kerouac's place in Nob Hill might be good for a "get out" section. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

3) The article's dashes are not standardized, using both hyphens surrounded by spaces and double hyphens to indicate breaks in thought. In my opinion, only mdashes (—) should ever be used for this purpose, whether you surround them with spaces ( — ) or not. If you'd like me to, I'm happy to quickly replace all the article's "breaks in thought" dash muddling with mdashes, and can do so in a jiffy—let me know. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:51, 30 July 2008 (EDT)

Please - knock yourself out. I'm happy to accept the help. To be honest it took so long writing this article that I missed some of the smaller things. Thanks for the critique. (WT-en) Asterix 13:16, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

Done. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:43, 31 July 2008 (EDT)

As per the last nomination of San Francisco/Chinatown-North Beach, the next biggest contributor was an anon IP. Thanks to he/she for adding some great listings under the Tenderloin budget options and for the breakdown of the ethnic communities there.

I know that it is missing about 3 check in/out times for hotels...I'll get them over the 2 weeks. I also have to re-check the map I edited as it was my first time. (WT-en) Asterix 19:56, 2 August 2008 (EDT)

Looks good! It's also great for Wikivoyage to have such an awesome guide on a neighborhood most guidebooks will tell you to avoid. Some small quibbles: prices are needed for the Linc Art Gallery, San Francisco Arts Commission Gallery, San Francisco Ballet, LGBT Pride Celebration, Kyoto Sushi, and La Quinta Inn and Suites Downtown. Hours are needed for Karma Culture and Starbucks, and check-in/check-out times would be good for the Civic Center Hotel and the La Quinta Inn and Suites Downtown. Other than that, I couldn't find anything missing. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:27, 11 August 2008 (EDT)

From a very casual glance, it looks fantastic. Unfortunately, I'm really busy right now and can't give a detailed critique until the weekend. Would you mind please keeping this starnom open until then, past the 14 days length? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:55, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Not a problem...appreciate you taking the time to read it. (WT-en) Asterix 16:23, 14 August 2008 (EDT)

Sorry for the delays. First, support — it's a fantastic article, and it's a joy to watch the quality of the travel writing develop with each star nom (I probably doubled my ability during my work on Chicago!). Regardless of the support, I like feedback, so I'll do unto others:

1) I'd like to see less stay safe info in the intro—I think that section should just be a brief explanation of why someone should visit. A blurb about crime in Tenderloin (what a name!) and maybe a pointer to the stay safe section in the understand section should be sufficient IMO.

2) We decided, I think, to use St instead of Street for all street names throughout articles about American destinations. I already converted all instances in this article (easy to do via notepad's find/replace-all option).

3) There's a ton of writing about street boundaries of "Loin hoods" (wanted to say that). I think it would be really worthwhile to show this on the map instead via color regions. If you're looking for a model, check this map. If you need any help with that, let me know.

4) Hours are missing for buildings in the architecture section. I tend to travel late in the day, and hate when I miss beautiful interiors because they closed at 4PM or something like that.

5) I'm confused -- gay pride day is when? the second day of SF Pride?

6) Karma Culture needs hours.

7) I thought that the "drink" section for Tenderloin didn't quite seem to live up to the introduction (which definitely made me interested in hanging out there). Would it be possible to toss in a few more interesting dives, gay bars, and dance clubs?

9) You also might want to tout that lively gallery scene in the understand section a bit more.

Lastly, so I don't forget when I next visit—top on my list after reading: Original Joe's, and I'd definitely like to be a tourist who visits laundromats for ice cream and wifi ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:24, 18 August 2008 (EDT)

Again, thanks for the detailed critique, it definitely makes the article stronger. Sometimes after working on one for a while, it becomes difficult to see the wood from the trees, so it's good to get an objective opinion. I've fixed most of your points so far — the rest I'll do in due course. (WT-en) Asterix 14:21, 19 August 2008 (EDT)

Hi, I'd like to nominate this district article. I know it's pretty big (hopefully not too big), but it is probably the largest district in SF in terms of see and do stuff etc. All comments r welcome. (WT-en) Asterix 14:07, 20 August 2008 (EDT)

Support. Sorry it's taken me so long to get around to going through this excellent article. I loved this part of SF, with its gorgeous buildings and everyone's favorite bridge (right?). Anyway, in general it looks very good. Some quick thoughts:

• Should there be a "By bike" bit in the Get in section of this article? I know that generally the hills make biking hard in SF, but there were a LOT of bicyclists riding along the Bay and across the Bridge when I went there. Perhaps we should throw that in.
• The price for the African American Historical and Cultural Society says "Free — on the first Wednesday of every month." Does that mean it's not free the rest of the time? If so, we need some prices.
• Inspiration Point isn't marked in the map.
• We could use prices for the Blue Bear Performance Hall.
• We need hours for House of Magic and Safeway under Buy.
• Check-in/check-out times needed for Presidio Inn & Suites.

Other than that, awesome. Awesome writing, awesome pictures, awesome place, just awesome. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:33, 30 August 2008 (EDT)

This article is the most developed article in the Caucus region and is quite through in its detail of sights, places to stay, and even some cultural insight to the city.

• Support. I've already critiqued this article on the article talk page and had my concerns addressed—I think it's ready for a star. I'd be happy to hear other critiques though, if they are forthcoming! If this one makes it, we'll get to add a new section to the Project:Star articles page for the Caucasus! Anyway, User:(WT-en) Cupcakecommander has done some terrific work with this one, making a truly complete guide to a city for which no other real guides exist, and which is a lovely travel destination—easily one of my favorites in Eastern Europe. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 10:12, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

• Almost Support - There is only one thing I think should still be fixed. Prices below 1 AZN is given both with (0.5 AZN) and without (.5 AZN) the leading 0. For uniformity and to ensure that one does not accidentally read 5 AZN for .5 AZN, I would suggest that they all be change to include the leading 0. --(WT-en) Nick 13:45, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

Done. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 13:49, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

• Almost support. Wow, what an interesting place! If this becomes a star it'll be fantastic, as we don't have any from this region of the world. After a long scan though, I found some nitpicky issues I thought should be addressed:

• Most of the listings that have hours lack days. For instance, is this place open daily, or just a few days of the week?
• The Handicrafts under Buy is not marked on the map.
• There's an infobox for Eliehmed Confectioneries, but should it just be its own listing? And if so, it should be marked on the map if possible.
• There's two eat listings marked on the map which have no mention in the article, as far as I could tell: Milli Yemeklar and the Turkish Bakery.
• The Kerpish Restaurant, Laziz Restaurant, Cold Spring/Soyuk Bulagh Restaurant, and Sheki Saray Hotel Restaurant lack prices.
• One of the hotels is spelled Shail Pansinot in the article, but Sahil Pansinot on the map.
• Finally, none of the hotels have check-in/check-out times. But then again, I don't know if its customary for hotels to have that in this part of the world. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 14:11, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

...am PerryPlanet, I'm pretty sure postings are supposed to go in sequential order??? (WT-en) Asterix 15:43, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

You'd think they would, but when I was editing the page the only edit conflict I had was with Peter's reply to the guy above me. I didn't even see yours until I was finished editing the page. Don't ask me... (WT-en) PerryPlanet 19:14, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

You're right, there are definitely a few map updates missing—thanks for catching these! I'll try and get a hold of Josh to help me locate the confectioneries listing on the map. I think I stayed at one place in the Caucasus that had a check-out time, but didn't encounter any here. Anyway, we haven't been including that in the criteria for star articles, and I'm not sure I'd want to change that. When you call the hotel or arrive there, they'll tell you themselves! And I agree that the confectioneries should be listingified, but I'll need Josh to do that, since I don't have an address. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:04, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

• Some Objections: I like this article, it seems like a really simple and quaint place. Overall I think it’s great, I like the abundance of pictures which really compliment the text. Mostly just some MoS issues for me…

• Listings are not in alphabetical order.
• Not all the listings are on the map
• It would be nice I think to get more specific with some listings, like in the “Drink Section”… to give the names and addresses of specific cafes etc.
• Throughout the article it uses the 24 hour clock, which I prefer, but is this standard on WT? Also, it lists 10:00 instead of 10 etc.
• How much is entry to the Drama Theater? Also, how much do the guided tours cost?
• It would nice to have hours in the “Buy” section, even for the Bazaars.
• In “Eat” section, average prices or price ranges for regional specialties would be good and there are some prices missing for a few restaurants there.
• I notice that some of the phone/fax numbers are missing the ‘994’ prefix...I think I saw 944 in there as well. Also lengths of phone no's differs somewhat...might want to check that.
• Is there anything else that could be added to the “Cope” section…like publications etc?
• As per verbage in the “Contact” section, it would be nice to more than one post office marked on the map.
• Caravansarai is mentioned in “See” and “Sleep” which eschews the “no duplications rule." Also their phone no’s are different?
• I don’t know does it apply as much here, but any info on check in and out times in “Sleep?”
• I don’t think that all of the sections need introductions but perhaps it would help to add a few? For example, imo “Eat” could use one, as could “Sleep” and “See”
• Not sure about touting the bottled water as ”healthy” so much especially with environmental concerns about bottling water etc
• Abbreviations for address needed…St not Street etc.
• ’T’ used instead of ‘Tu’ per time and date format.

Sorry about the long list; most of them would probably not stop it becoming a star but I think that some would. If I catch anything else later I’ll let you know. Well done on a great job. (WT-en) Asterix 14:01, 10 September 2008 (EDT)

I talked with Josh about the teahouses quite a bit, and our agreement eventually was that there are no real differences between the teahouses (same tea, same men milling about), they have no phone numbers to call, and they're all over the place—they'd be hard not to find. So we decided to leave individual listings for them out of the article. If someone is looking for one, they'd probably only have to walk a few steps, but they could also check the map for the ones located close to tourist areas.

We're still sort of debating whether to use the 24 hour clock for destinations that use it (that is, all posted schedules in Azerbaijan are in the 24 hour format), but I don't think that should hold up a star nomination anyway--as long as the article is internally consistent.

For the drama theater & guided tour prices, my guess is that they vary wildly, but I'll try and get Josh to comment on that.

Regarding the Caravansarai, I'm not sure that there is a better way to display the information. It's the second biggest attraction in the city, but is also perhaps the best hotel option as well. I've taken out the (incorrect) contact information in the see entry and linked directly to the sleep entry, where you can find the contact info. Hopefully that will resolve this problem, as well as it can be.

And regarding the bottled water, the natural mineral waters in these parts are supposed to have all sorts of health benefits, and are safe from parasites, so I think that's what that is referring to.

I'll make sure to get all the map issues fixed too. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:49, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

• Support Though i agree with the above comment, that listing should be on the map of possible (WT-en) Sertmann 13:23, 25 September 2008 (EDT)

• Almost support. I think it looks pretty good and pretty darn close... once all the above concerns are addressed, I'll support. Definitely hours should be formatted correctly, and also phone #'s should all start with +994 – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk

I'm still working on some of the above concerns, but wanted to document that I've taken care of both the hours and phone numbers. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:11, 21 October 2008 (EDT)

Just wanted to jump in and let any potential slushers know not to slush this discussion. Hopefully I'll get some help from User:(WT-en) Cupcakecommander, but I'm committed to getting the above issues resolved and getting a nice star on this Caucasian article. Just a matter of time. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 01:17, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

OK, I think I've done all that I'm inclined to do. I've stricken the objections/suggestions that have been taken care of. The ones that remain, I've tried to address in that longer comment just above. What's the process for making this a star now? Nick and Asterix have both stopped contributing here, so they won't be able to reverse their earlier positions... --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:30, 11 November 2008 (EST)

It's looking much better now...I'm rather confused about the Handicrafts listing though. It looks like it's labeled "Handicapped Association" on the map, but then under the Shebeke listing, you have the "Handicraft Association headquarters at 85 Vidadi St", which is different than the "18 A. Cabrayilov St" given under the Handicrafts listing. So I'm definitely rather bewildered on that one. But other than that it looks fine. I fully Support now. (WT-en) PerryPlanet 00:26, 12 November 2008 (EST)

If someone is not checking regularly, I think it's unfair for a potential star, to drop into oblivion, just because of this. And besides they would have ample time to object by now - so I think the nomination should carry on regardless of these users opinions. And I of course still Support. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 19:36, 15 November 2008 (EST)

OK, I'm going to give this another week (so 2 weeks from my final fixes), before declaring it our first ever FSU star! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:06, 18 November 2008 (EST)

It's been a while since we've had a star nom, so I figured I'd nominate one of the most benighted and impoverished slices of the U.S. I've held off on nominating this one simply because it is such an unconventional travel destination, but I do believe it's formatted to a tee, an enjoyable read, and probably the best extant guide to Anacostia anywhere (there aren't many!). Lastly, I promise I'll get in some D.C. star noms in the future that aren't quite so intimidating to most visitors. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 19:15, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

And note: the listings are few, but this is complete. I know this area well, and I really don't think there is anything else worth including—there are precious few business establishments here, despite it being such a large swathe of land right in the center of one of the nation's largest metro areas. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 19:19, 19 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. After a scan of the article, it seems to read well and I can't find sufficient enough reason to oppose it. However, the way everything on the map is tilted makes it rather aggravating to read. I don't mind the map itself being tilted (north doesn't always have to be up), it's all the icons being tilted that gets me, along with some of the street names ("Branch Ave" is practically upside down). Also, hours for the rest of the Eat/Drink listings might be good. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 00:06, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

Ah, whoa, I forgot about those eat/drink hours! I'll be sure to call tomorrow and see if I can't get the businesses in question to tell me when they're open (this will actually be hard in Anacostia...). And regarding the map, I rotated the icons to match the street layout, in order to make it easier to distinguish which street the icons are located (especially at corners). If it's bothering people, I'm sure I could move them back to 90 degrees. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:37, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

I personally didn't even notice the icons, but rather the park names. I can't think of any reason for those to be tilted. And Branch Ave does look a little odd upside down. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 08:23, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

I've finished tracking down those last listing hours (as I expected, it was like pulling teeth). --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:06, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. But (without having seen the alternative) I think I support moving things back to 90 degrees. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 10:03, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

I remember now why I kept all the icons/park text/etc. tilted with the compass—I did it with printed use in mind. If someone prints out the article, they can just tilt it so that north is at 90 degrees, making the whole map a lot easier to use. I'll create an extra layer for an export in the fashion people are requesting, and make the decision once we can see them side-by-side. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:46, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

OK, here are the two map versions, one with text & icons tilted north, the other with them rotated to display online at 90 degrees. I still prefer the former for two reasons: 1) it makes more sense for offline use, since you can just rotate the printed page (or iphone or whatever), and I always print WT maps before using them anyway; 2) forcing viewers to tilt their heads is not necessarily a bad thing—it can otherwise be easy to miss the fact that the whole map is indeed rotated 45 degrees off compass north. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:39, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Looks really good. Re the map, I do think that maps should pretty much always be oriented for north... I see that it's funny shape/orientation is probably why you did it the way you did, and in that case I like the tilted text so you can rotate as you mentioned.... I would definitely be holding it for north were I using it to travel and would appreciate the thought behind that :) – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 02:24, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
  • So you guys would rotate the map back and forth when trying to correlate the legend with an item on the map? It strikes me as odd, but I don't have the real-world experience you guys do. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:03, 21 April 2009 (EDT)
    • Yeah, I'd have to go with Lt on this. I think the map with the "corrected" icons just reads a whole lot easier, especially when you take the legend into account. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 12:15, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

Yes, the legend is the part for which I would tilt my head ;) I have something of an internal compass, so reading the map as it is in the second version is more comfortable, but also more confusing. I'm still not sure which way to go with this, since there is disagreement—hopefully there will be more comments. If we decide to go for the second version, I would be inclined to keep the former updated as well (which is easy given how few travel icons the map requires), and link to it from the second's image file as an offline printing option. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:29, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

Or link from the image text "click here for a North oriented map better suited for printing" or something like that... --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 14:57, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

@LtP: I wasn't thinking so much about the back and forth when looking for legend items.... I more have an overall dislike of maps that aren't oriented for north.... so yes, I would hold the map so that north is facing up, and read it that way. But I'm definitely not trying to stir up a big debate, the article could go forth with either version and be just fine – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 21:39, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

Might as well clarify the reasons why I tilted the map to begin with: 1) To keep the map aligned north would entail an image covering much more territory, and consequently the icons and text would be much smaller relative to the image, and hence a lot harder to read. 2) the problems of #1 are relevant both online and offline—the rectangular format makes for easy high-res printing on standard 8x11" sheets of paper. 3) A more square image (necessitated by a northern alignment) would show a lot of blank space, particularly on the MD side (and there's nothing important to add there—the main roads are already in—it would just look unattractive). --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:24, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

Just to clarify, the decision of which map is used has virtually no impact on whether I support promotion to star, I do in either case. However, I still stubbornly cling to my belief that map #2 is easier to read. ;) I like the idea of linking to the more printable version from the "online version"; in fact I'll likely be doing just that with a whole bunch of maps if I can make a Wikivoyage Press book out of the San Francisco articles. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 00:00, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

Support. Overall, excellent article. Actually, I think excellent is an understatement. Great work, Peter. -- (WT-en) Sapphire • (Talk) • 16:45, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. The coverage and maps are definitely star-worthy, and I love that some of Wikivoyage's best articles are places that other publications only skim (if at all). My only issue is that the introduction is rather dry — I'd like to see at least one sentence or phrase in there with a kick, something with a note of excitement about the place. It's not until halfway through the third paragraph of the article that you begin to make any kind of case for visiting there. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 22:57, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

I gave a go at tightening and enlivening the introduction. I also added a "Words of Wisdom with Mayor Marion Barry" infobox, words of a man who never faltered in the cause of enlivening everything he touched. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 01:07, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

Yes. Yes, that is most enlivening! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:58, 29 April 2009 (EDT)

As promised, more D.C. nominations. This is a section of town that I know pretty much in and out (although I can't totally vouch for the womens' shopping listings, of course...), and to my eyes it's complete. It's also formatted properly, unless I missed something, and hopefully my prose is up to snuff. This is my favorite part of the city, so it would bring me a smile to put a star on top. Thoughts? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:50, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Looks good! There are a few listings missing hours (Blink Optical and Circle Boutique under Buy and Ben's Chili Bowl under Eat) and an Eat listing missing prices (Negril), but other than that it seems great. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 19:24, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

Oops! Fixed. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:00, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. The only questions I'm left with is if the exhibitions inside the Thurgood Marshall Center and Black Fashion Museum are free, not that this nitpicking should prevent a star nomination from going through (that, and hmmmm, more alarming I noticed the IsIn tag isn't working on Washington, D.C. - lemme see if I can fix that) --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 20:19, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

Ah, old news I guess --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 20:24, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, no one understands what's up with the D.C. breadcrumbs. I finally got responses from the TMC and BFM—the former is indeed free, and the latter closed last year. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 16:20, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Nice work again PF – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 02:24, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. The photos in this article are superb — I can't think of an article on WT with better. And the depth of coverage is fantastic. Should it say that Thurgood Marshall wrote his opinion at the Y, or did he just think up what he was going to write while he was there (and do the actual writing somewhere else)? Also, there's some creeping confusion between "the district" as a term for D.C. and "the district" as a term for this district of the city. I'd prefer italics for the non-English words in the 'Eat' section, but that's just a personal preference. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:12, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

Hey thanks for the photo compliments! My camera is pretty low-grade, but that crisp March sky couldn't have been better. I went through and got rid of all ambiguous references to "the district" (I sort of figured this would become a problem). Re: Thurgood Marshall, to my knowledge, the idea that he actually penned the opinion there is an unconfirmed rumor. What is clear, though, is that that's where he met with other prominent members of the African-American bar to prepare the opinion. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:42, 22 April 2009 (EDT)

Let the torrent follow the drought. This is actually a new Chicago district, following a reshuffle of the hierarchy, and I'm pretty sure it's up to star standards. The formatting should be correct, it lists just about everything of note—the cream of the crop anyway, and I don't know if I could bear the sight of a South Side district without a star on top. My Chicago love is such that I can't pick a favorite neighborhood, but man the BBQ is good down here! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:25, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support wholeheartedly. Another mind-blowing Chicago guide, Peter! Anywho, on to the nitpicking: I see there's no prices for Dat Donuts; I'm not sure if that was intentional, since it's a donut shop, but it might be good to know how much one of their fabulous donuts will cost. There's also no hours for the Club Escape. Other than that, looks awesome, what with all the BBQ, Blues, and Blues Brothers. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 13:09, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

I can't believe I forgot the donut prices! That was my regular 4AM haunt for a long while (tryin' to cut back on the donuts lately). Anyway, fixed, and thanks once again for catching these missed details. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 13:43, 23 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. I'm biased, obviously, but it consistently blows my mind how a skinny white kid is the foremost authority on Chicago's fried chicken, BBQ, and soul food establishments. But he is! There's a best-selling diet book in there somewhere. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:57, 29 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support Looks good --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 09:54, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

And another D.C. district article nomination. This, after the Mall, is probably the most touristed section of the city, so it's a useful one to have at high quality. I lived here for a good while, so I think the recommendations should pretty much all be spot on, but I have had to check my tendency towards derision in this article—hopefully my efforts to tone that down have been successful! Everything should be properly formatted, as I checked over this one more carefully than the other nominations, I think. Filling out those shopping listings was extremely painful, so I want a star in return. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 19:16, 28 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Looks good! Really thorough, excellent guide. But now for the nitpicky stuff: It might be nice to have some contact info for the C&O Canal and the GU Library, like a phone number or something. There seems to be a lot of listings missing hours: Georgetown Tobacco, Peacock Cafe, Citronelle, Sequoia, Blue Gin, J Paul's, The Tombs, and Degrees. Also, there are a few places from Buy that are not on the map. I'm not worried about the chain places, I'm talking about the listings: Sugar, MOCA DC, and Parish Gallery. Also, shouldn't The Shops at Georgetown park be on the map? I've never been to D.C., so maybe it's really easy to find, but I can't see it on the map. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 20:08, 29 April 2009 (EDT)

Wow, the hours were all over the place—I'm a little amazed that I missed that, and I think you were being overly generous in supporting the article in that condition! But all your points have now been addressed. MOCA & Parish were left off deliberately, as they are included in the "Canal Square Galleries," but, of course, I had forgotten to mention that in the listings... Again, a very big thanks for catching these details; it's extremely helpful, and I'll make sure to return the favor on any of your future nominations. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:53, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

Ah, I knew you would fix up these little details in an instant. Why put down a vote of "near support" when I knew I'd have to change it so soon? ;) (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 11:43, 30 April 2009 (EDT)

• Support A lot to read through, but I can't find any issues, and I'm really impressed with the Buy section. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 09:54, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

• Support (WT-en) ViMy 11:42, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Great article! I loved the Dumbarton Oaks and Exorcist Steps descriptions, although the article is rich with enjoyable asides throughout. You might indicate somewhere that the Hoyas are the university mascot (outside of that one 'Buy' listing), since people will hear a lot about them. And the Georgetown basketball team probably deserves a 'Do' mention, since they've produced some of the USA's best basketball players over the last couple of decades. You noted your concern about the photos on Talk:Washington,_D.C./Georgetown, but they're not bad — illustrative of the area, if not as artful as the photos in Washington, D.C./Shaw. As a formatting note, I prefer using foreign words in italics, but I don't think there's a WT policy on the issue, so that's just personal preference. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 01:04, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Good point on the GW basketball—I've added an infobox to take care of that. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 05:24, 20 May 2009 (EDT)

Inspired by Marc's comment that some of our best guides are for places barely mentioned in regular guide books, I thought I'd give this nomination a go - aside from a short section on Dragør, LP doesn't have a single listing from this district in their guidebook. It suffers a little from being a really huge district (100km2/60mi2), but I don't think braking it up would work well, and 10 districts in a city of one million is already stretching it. My only major concern is the prose, so I would appreciate if you guys would go a bit deeper than skimming, and fix up the language where it's lagging. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 09:54, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

• Almost support. I fixed up a lot of the grammar, although I might have missed some, but I think I got it all. Anyway, it's a great guide, but it's feeling a little lacking. The tiny intro to the article and the lack of a lead picture are particularly glaring, and there's no intros to the Eat and Drink sections. There's also some problems with the map - the main one is that it's too small. Even when I zoom in, I can barely read it. Also, none of the Contact listings are on the map. However, I think all these problems can be fixed up pretty quickly. To your immense credit, I don't see any obvious lackings of hours, phone numbers, or any of those little but crucial details in the listings, so you've one-upped Peter there. ;) (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 12:58, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Hmmm, the intro was not that much smaller than say Anacostia's, but I tried expanding it a bit - though it feels like repeating he understand section a bit. Lead picture, yup, need to come up with something there. Wrote up a small intro in eat, and shuffled the intro to the drink section above the subheader. Contact listings were updated on the map, right before the nomination - you might want to refresh or something? As to the size of the map, I'm a bit at loss at what to do - should I just make a bigger svg export say 2000 pixel tall instead of the current 1200? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 16:50, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, but Anacostia's intro was criticized too. ;) Anywho, I see the Contact listings on the map now (huh, could've sworn they weren't there before). Making the map bigger isn't that hard - you can just select everything, hit Ctrl+Shift+M, click scale, enter a number (say "25", that'll probably do it) in both boxes and that'll enlarge it for you. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 18:49, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

My bad, what I meant to ask was if increasing the size would be sufficient, or do I need to rework the map completely? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 19:41, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

I think increasing the size of the map should be fine. It's a good map, it just needs to be a little bigger. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 20:05, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

Agreed. Just increase the resolution, so it can be printed -- Wikivoyage Press recommends 1709x3008. (You can shave off the green park bits to the west so make it fit this ratio.) (WT-en) Jpatokal 23:08, 3 May 2009 (EDT)

OK, I've resized the map to 1709x3008 --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 06:09, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

Looks good! I support now (although I would still like to see that lead pic, but that's not a crucial point). (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 13:18, 4 May 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Shit island populated by Amaricans, eh? I hope this isn't some elaborate international put down. Great article, and I have trouble finding anything to cavil about. One that stands out is the description for Madeleines Madteater—I have no idea what it is, what it serves, why it's so unique, etc. I made a few minor corrections to fit publishing standards I'm familiar with, like using mdashes instead of hyphens for parenthetical usage, and spelling out numbers zero–twenty. This could be an undesirable Americanization, though—if it is, please revert. The last improvements I'm left wanting is to see the sleep section ordered by price—with nine, I think there are enough listings for this to be useful; and for a short intro in the Contact section (or short descriptions) explaining what the listings are for (do they all offer internet access?). --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 08:12, 13 May 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Great article. Agree with Peter, the sleep section could be ordered by price. (WT-en) ViMy 19:36, 16 May 2009 (EDT)

OK, so I sorted the sleep listings by price, and no - I'm not masterminding an anti American conspiracy - at least not in this regard :) As for Madeleines' they prepare and serve the food as a theatrical performance (there is a photograph and a more comprehensive description in English here) - but isn't that what the listing is already saying? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 12:38, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

The listing says "staging the food as a theatre of sorts", which to me means they set the food up to resemble a small theater stage with curtains made out of lettuce and, I don't know, use puppets on it or something. Just a wording tweak should fix that up. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:21, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Hmm, I tried to rephrase it a bit, but I think it may just be a concept around which minds wrap with difficulty. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:09, 19 May 2009 (EDT)

Three weeks is up, last call for comments before putting a shiny star at the top of this one! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:04, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

Support. I love the neon monstrosity infobox! Just one quibble: pick a lead image for the article. There are worthy candidates in the body (excepting, of course, the aforementioned monstrosity). (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:52, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

Anybody ready to go final with this one? Just needs a lead image in my estimation. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:18, 14 June 2009 (EDT)

It's now a star! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 01:25, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

Now that we have a sufficiently huge amount of 'Drink' listings for every corner of this article (and plenty more in reserve on the Talk page), I believe it's ready for a star. It covers one of Chicago's top attractions, Wrigley Field, as well as several major theaters and music venues. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 17:26, 14 June 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Looks very solid and it's very fun to read. But now for the nitpicking: Anthropologie and Gaymart don’t have hours; Lincoln Restaurant, Nookie's Tree, The Chicago Diner, and Que Rico! have no prices, the Century Shopping Centre isn't on the map, and I think Digital Network Solutions is labeled as Computer Network Source on the map. Other than that, looks great. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 18:57, 14 June 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for the scrutiny. I've added the hours & prices. I just noticed the Computer Network Source name change today. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:28, 14 June 2009 (EDT)

• Support (surprise, surprise). If I had a problem with the article, I would have brought it up already. And I've updated the map. Great article from our resident ape, and a special thanks to Allison for pushing the drink section to star status. Unrelated, but I had a grand old time at Wrigley last Friday watching the Monopoly Man make a fool of himself. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 01:18, 15 June 2009 (EDT)

My, how time does fly. Last call on this one... (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 11:46, 28 June 2009 (EDT)

• Support I only have one minor quibble - Music Box, shouldn't that read tickets or is that American slang for something? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 17:54, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

"Ticker" is American slang for a heart...so, no, that was just a typo. Thanks for catching it! (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 18:28, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Howdy, all. I'd like submit for nomination a destination dear to my heart: Big Bend National Park. Hopefully everything is up to snuff. (WT-en) Army of me 00:59, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

• Support. It's been a pleasure to watch this article grow, and I can't see any obvious room for improvement. I hope I'll get to put it to use soon! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 12:15, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Fantastic article! I'm always finding reasons to be proud of our park articles. However, there is one thing - the star criteria for a park says that the article must have a Wikivoyage-style map (this was established when Zion was promoted to star), rather than the regular NP version. If you want, I can make this map, because this article is truly exquisite. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 13:13, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

I was wondering about that. Do you know where that discussion took place? IMO, the detailed NPS park map with all the trails is going to be more useful than a WT-style map, and it's Public Domain, so it's not like there are any licensing issues. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 13:17, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Ironically, I think I used some of those same arguments way back when...The discussion is here: Project:Star nominations/Archives#Zion National Park. I don't want to hold Big Bend back from star status for this minor issue either, but it became such a big deal when Zion was up that I figured it would come back... (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 13:59, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

I'm not sure the NPS map is readable at printed size, but I'm also not sure I'd hold the article back from Star status just for that reason. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:22, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

If you are up to creating a WT-style map, with at least the trailheads marked (if not the trails)—awesome. It might be necessary to use more than one png for such a map (e.g., northeast, northwest, southeast, southwest). But like Ryan said in this discussion, I don't think it makes sense to substitute a WT-style map that is less useful than the NPS map. Per a strict reading of the star status criteria, use of an NPS map could be a disqualifier, but a WT-style map could satisfy the requirements for star status without being up to the NPS standards!

It would be great if we could grab the vector version of the NPS map and alter the colors to our preferred style, maybe remove the vague topographical definition, etc. But unless someone here has access to a vector graphics editing program that can import NPS pdfs (like $600 Illustrator ), then that won't be a realistic option. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 15:11, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Just tested, and Inkscape can open it without problem. The entire background is one easily-removable element as well. - (WT-en) Dguillaime 17:05, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

Aha, so I was raising a fuss for no reason ;) I'll whip up a WT-style map from the NPS pdf today. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:23, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

That was extremely easy! I'll play around with the map a bit more, to remove some of the less important info, make the more important info more visible, alter some more of the colors for visibility, etc. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:38, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

• Support. I love this part of Texas, and this article is excellent — it feels comprehensive, provides exactly the right level of detail on everything, and is thoroughly enjoyable to read. (And FYI — I have access to a copy of Illustrator should it ever prove necessary.) (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 20:55, 30 June 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Good news on the map discovery, that's handy, I would have not supported without a WT map (no other guidebook would go to publication with a NP map just because it's easier :) Peter, are we not using green for NP map backgrounds anymore? – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 17:03, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

• Support Fantastic guide, and as for the map I have a feeling the standard dark green, would make it confusing to read, but maybe we could test it? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 17:57, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

It's not the dark green used for city parks, it's green like this one :) – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 18:27, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

I'm no fan of that old neon green, but I've put up a quieter green version for comparison here. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:59, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

Love it.... perhaps you should propose that as the new standard on the htdam talk page – (WT-en) cacahuate ^talk 20:08, 1 July 2009 (EDT)

• It's a great article, and as someone said, it really is an enjoyable read. I just have one question: I have seen previous discussions about the need for linked articles to be at guide status. Does that still stand? There are some red articles, but more importantly, the cities Study Butte-Terlingua and Lajitas, which are mentioned repeatedly as the places to "Eat", "Drink", and "Sleep" are only outlines... Is that an issue? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 02:33, 2 July 2009 (EDT)
  • I think that usually means linked in a "regions", "cities", or "other destinations" section (that is, sub-articles that would point back to this one in breadcrumb navigation). (WT-en) LtPowers 11:10, 2 July 2009 (EDT)

Hereby submitted. It has two city maps and a transit map; the atomic bomb sites are thoroughly covered, including a few that no other guidebook has picked up, but it also has enough for several days in the city, and even things to do with kids in tow. This would be our first Japan star and second for Asia. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 09:06, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

• Support Yay! more non US stars! Excellent lively writing and an amazing history section! I'd like to see more of listings spelled out in Japanese though, I remember from my first visits to Japan, that I always ended up showing the Kanji from Lonely Planet when asking for directions. Though I know it breaks the system, so maybe that's an open call. As for the usual nitpicks; open during school hours - may not be very telling for the average tourister, Tachikoma's hours just reads F-W? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 09:49, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

I don't think it should be an open call; as you stated, it's extremely helpful. I think it'd be a good policy to list all attractions in their native script, if they do not use the English alphabet (or a mutually comprehensible one). I imagine it would help to list names in Arabic, Chinese, Russian, etc. on their respective pages. At any rate, I've added the Japanese script to all of the "See" listings outside of Peace Park.

I haven't fully reviewed the page, but I did notice the Flame of Peace is missing from the map (and perhaps the park description). It's located on the opposite side of the pond as the Cenotaph, and the flame is to burn until all nuclear weapons in the world have been destroyed. It's an interesting part of the park, and a good conversation piece. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 23:15, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

Yeah, that's a good idea. (And thanks, Chubby, for doing 'See'!) To clarify, though, are you saying that every 'See' listing should have kanji, or every listing in the article (hotels, bars, etc)? The flame of peace is mentioned in the article, but the phrasing of the location is muddled, so I'll clarify that and add it to the Peace Park map. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 23:41, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

For me, I think just "See" is enough for foreign scripts. Of course, I can't speak for Stefan. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:02, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

• Support Extremely well-written article. — (WT-en) Ravikiran 04:50, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

• Support. It's always a good sign when an article really makes you want to visit the destination it speaks of. It's incredibly well-written and all the listings look good. There's one thing though - I'd like to see a little more correlation between the tram map and the regular one - nothing big, I want to see the tram map stay (it's very useful), I'd just like to see the stations marked on the regular map so I can tell exactly where the tram goes. Other than that, I have no qualms and it's a fantastic article. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 14:59, 1 August 2009 (EDT)

The tram stations are so close to each other — only a block or two apart in the city center — that the map wouldn't be able to fit all of the names. Symbols might be possible, although they'd be a tight fit. Would drawing the tram lines on the streets work? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:53, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

The tram line with symbols would be good. Maybe just adding the names of the most prominent stops would be suitable. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 20:21, 4 August 2009 (EDT)

Last call for this one — tram lines & stations have been added to the map, and a long distance call placed to Tachikoma for hours. Any other comments? (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 16:24, 16 August 2009 (EDT)

• Almost support. My say on this has already expired (I've been preoccupied with D.C.), so you can go ahead and add the star without addressing my concerns. That said, I only have one—shouldn't the phone numbers all have the country code included "+81"? Is there a reason not to do this? It would take me about 30 seconds to fix this, so just say the word. Aside from that, I have two non-crucial map suggestions: 1) change the grey background to the light grey color—I think this increases readability marginally; 2) increase the text size of the main road names just a little bit.
  Quibbles aside, this is a fantastic article, and will be a great model for how to do a large-city right. It's also, surprisingly, our second Asian star, the only one since Singapore (which was more than three years ago). Congratulations on a job well done! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:33, 16 August 2009 (EDT)

No, I don't have any feelings about the phone numbers — the word is said, please format as appropriate. (WT-en) Gorilla Jones 19:21, 16 August 2009 (EDT)

Done. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:12, 16 August 2009 (EDT)

I believe everything in this section of Walt Disney World is now covered. This is somewhat of a test case, as your comments here on what might be missing will hopefully make it easier to get the other WDW articles up to star quality. I'm a little worried if the prose is up to snuff, but I tried to make it as engaging as possible. It has a full map and I'm trusting my grammar skills not to have missed anything obvious. I'm available to make changes as necessary. (WT-en) LtPowers 17:03, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Support - I'm pretty impressed with this, and it seems like most reservations brought up at the last round (before distrification) has been addressed, especially with the great map! Get all the districts up to snuff, and we might start luring in a new demographic to our quest for world domination, google willing. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 17:26, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Support. I'm impressed exponentially with this. I'm positively sure that a Star nomination for this article will push both the main Walt Disney World article and all the other subarticles towards being Stars. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 22:27, 5 July 2009 (EDT)

Comments.

1. I'm not sure about the '$', '$$', symbols on food and drink. I don't think that is what we currently use for price ranges, is it?
2. I see the red hands, but I have to refer to the stay safe section in a different article for the rules? What if I just printed out this one for my day at this park?
3. I don't like the merged See/Do sections. Surely there are some things in the park to be seen - shows etc, and other things to be done - rides etc, according to our criteria. Why merge them here?
4. I think exclamation marks are a little overdone - too many for one article, and I think words like pretty cool, and neat, sound a little odd, without really meaning much.
5. Some parts read a bit like a Disney brochure. We don't refer to the traveller as a guest in other articles, should we here? Star Tours an experience like no other for Star Wars fans? Hmmm.. - perhaps in the 80's. --(WT-en) inas 00:38, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

1. I've gone back and forth on them. There are pros and cons both ways. The pro side is that these match up with what guests will see in their guide maps at the park, and they make it easy to tell at a glance how expensive a place is. It wouldn't be hard to go through and replace them with price ranges if deemed necessary.
2. You could make that argument for a lot of things, like the Advance Dining Reservations, weather tips, Fastpass, etc., which would mean duplicating large portions of Walt Disney World in each of the five district articles. We could do it, but it would become a nightmare to maintain. I thought we usually tried to not duplicate information where possible.
3. Brief discussion occurred at Talk:Walt Disney World#See/Do. Shows are, strictly speaking, under "Do" along with rides according to our criteria, so the See sections would be rather barren. It would also disrupt the grouping by area organization. Still, this is something that could be done if deemed necessary.
4. I was starting to run out of adjectives. Specific suggestions for replacements are welcome.
5. Strictly speaking, the statement about Star Tours is true, 80s or otherwise. There are no other Star Wars theme park rides, certainly not in a motion simulator. As for your first comment, I'm not sure what you mean. Parts of the Chicago guide read like a Chicago brochure, too. With similar goals, that would seem to be inevitable, wouldn't it?

-- (WT-en) LtPowers 06:41, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

I think a star article should adhere to our policy, and be an example which we want to be copied and emulated. Perhaps we want this article to align with the Disney guide, but if we do, I think it should remain a guide. To become a star it should exemplify our guide style. I think this reasoning applies to the joint See/Do, and the prices as $$ signs. Maybe they are a good idea here, but do we want that style deployed widely? If not, we shouldn't use it in a star article - at least until there are enough stars to make it clear that this is an exception.

I'm not saying the article shouldn't advocate visiting the park. I just think referring to visitors, travellers, us, as guests sounds like a guide produced by the company. I don't think the Chicago guide sounds like it is written by Chicago tourist info.

I was just giving Star Tours as an example, but saying that it is an experience like no other for Star Wars fans has an implication far greater than the fact that it is the only Star Wars licensed ride, IMO. --(WT-en) inas 07:19, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

Most "unofficial" guidebooks published by third-party publishers (Fodors, Frommers, etc.) also use the $-$$$$ system for dining prices. Let me also point out that WDW's official price range system consists of four parts, not three.

I'm not saying it is a bad system, just that currently it is not our model. Best to discuss at Wikivoyage_talk:Restaurant_listings#price_ranges --(WT-en) inas 18:59, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

It's very unlikely that someone will actually print the page out and bring it to the park, considering the fact that park maps are given away for free. Also look at it this way: I wouldn't want to bring my Lonely Planet guidebook or my laptop computer with me into the park -- it would be way too much of a burden. In other words, the purpose of the article is to provide planning information before you set out, not during your trip. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 10:42, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

Regarding your comment, "What if I just printed out this one for my day at this park?" If you did so, the map would be too small to read, so you would have no other choice but to enlarge the map and print it separately. Same goes for sections in the main article. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 11:04, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

Not sure. It is a great guide for sure, and I'm willing to overlook some of the things Inas commented on (the '$$' symbols and combined See/Do section don't bother me so much, considering we are talking about a theme park setting and these will probably be the best way to handle them in cases like this), but I think Inas hit the nail on the head when he talked about the tone of the guide. The caption for the first picture is a good example: "The giant Sorcerer's Hat tells you that you've entered a place where the magic of film is brought to life." It really does read like a Disney brochure to me. But then again, I'm not really the kind of person who would go to Disney World, so I wonder if the tone is appropriate considering the audience who will read this guide (specifically, patrons of Disney theme parks). Still, I feel like we could tone down the promotional-sounding language, while still making the language lively. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 13:32, 6 July 2009 (EDT)

I'm not sure I fully understand what you're getting at. Is there a good example of prose in the article that you could point out and I could emulate? (WT-en) LtPowers 22:09, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

I just read through the article and although the caption under the Sorcerer Hat and the one under the 13-floor drop ride are a bit cheesy, the prose within the text doesn't seem promotional to me. It's definitely not completely positive and glossy. I've never been to Disney, but the article does mention when attractions are not quite as advertised/expected. The possible let-downs and shortcomings are there. Inas may have a point about the "See and Do" thing, since it has been changed on other pages that have put them together, but it reads fine to me. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 22:44, 7 July 2009 (EDT)

I think ChubbyWimbus put it best as "cheesy". There are many good examples of prose in the guide, but I'm not sure which one I would pull out to use as an example. Maybe I would change that photo caption to "Just as in Fantasia before it, the appearance of the Sorcerer's Hat means you're about to experience the magic of film." Although that sounds cheesy too, but hey, it's a thought. After another scan of the article, I'm at a lost to suggest how to improve it, which probably means there isn't much to improve. I'll change my vote to support. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 17:22, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

My intent is to make the best article I can, so I don't want to seem as if I'm browbeating anyone with excuses just to get them to Support. I will keep a lookout for less-than-sparkling text, but some guidance really would be helpful. =) (WT-en) LtPowers 19:28, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

You're not browbeating me, I'm just at a lost to provide guidance, because I keep running into the brick wall of "this is a theme park". I'm used to dealing with cities or national parks, but everything that makes sense in those cases just seems to hit the wall here. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 22:30, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Constructive Points: Great work, its come a long way in short time. Since our Stars are the revered models for imitation, I have some minor points for improvement.

Aesthetically, I don't like to ever see a full screen of all text. I realize that's not a quantifiable policy, but my first impression is that more pictures would make me more interested in the content. I think one picture per Section is a worthy goal (excluding Drink and Sleep). Also, the existing photos could be larger than thumb size to be more engaging (specifically Sci-Fi dine in theater, I have to click on it to tell what it is). Other iconic images that might be helpful are ones for the Muppets or Star Tours.

Structure wise, how come Get Out is missing? I think it would be helpful even if it was a condensed, albeit perfunctory, reminder of the Get In info, with links to the other parks. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 18:53, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

I have to be very careful with pictures due to copyright concerns. A picture of the big Kermit balloon attached to the top of the Muppet*Vision 3-D building, for instance, would be a derivative work of the illustration on the balloon. Not to mention potential character trademark issues. I probably should try to find a picture of one of the resorts, though.

As for image size, I thought it was considered best practice to not specify a size for thumbnails except where necessary; this allows users to set their preferred thumbnail size. If the images are too small for you, you can change your thumbnail size in your preferences.

Get Out is missing because it's largely redundant with the Districts and Get Around sections of the parent article. The Project:District article template doesn't even contain a Get Out section, so it seems that it's generally not needed. Besides, our guidelines generally advise against duplicating information within an article; they specifically say that Get Out should not just duplicate information from Get In. If you had something different in mind, by all means, let me know. =)

-- (WT-en) LtPowers 19:28, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

I think there is justification to enlarge the images in this case, and exercise the exception. Most anon Users will have the default thumb setting, and for them the images won't look like an integrated part of the article. I think if the image isn't clear at default thumb size, there is room within the policy to specify a size that works. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 20:03, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

I have enlarged the images per the guidelines in Project:How to add an image. How do they look now? (WT-en) LtPowers 21:27, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Looks great! If you're able to avoid the copyright issues, I'd like to see a couple more images too, to make it visually complete. --(WT-en) Jtesla16 21:47, 8 July 2009 (EDT)

Update: I have added additional pictures, revised some of the wording, and replaced the dollar signs with actual price ranges. Please re-review and comment. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:44, 9 July 2009 (EDT)

• Oppose. A couple, relatively easy-to-fix obstacles:

1) I think the trivia section should go. I'm pretty sure I just deleted one elsewhere, this is definitely not an established practice, and the Wikipedia experience was that these proliferate fast, with little benefit to the articles. (Trivia sections tend to be an excuse to substitute travel writing with lazier bulleted lists.) Plenty of good information there, which should be easy to move to listing descriptions, section introductions, or the understand section proper (I think the MM Club info is already there, in fact).

2) "prices vary" should be converted to a price range. I'm pretty sure the only instance was the Championship Stadium.

3) "lunch, dinner" should be converted to hours. That's a standard WT policy that I find very useful. My apologies if resort-wide hours for meals is already covered in the main article, if such standards exist. If they are all the same within this "district," then that should be noted in the "eat" section introduction.

I have a couple other non-critical questions/suggestions.

First, Street names here are overwhelmingly non-abbreviated, although we have decided to use St, Ave, Blvd, etc. instead of full names. At a Disney resort, though, perhaps the names are thoroughly considered proper names, which should always be spelled out? Second, the get around section is very long, and seems redundant given the map—perhaps it could be cut down (significantly)? Also, there are a couple referrals to the "Times Guide." Apologies if this too has already been discussed, but other (often competing) guides are the last thing that we want to refer to people—our guides are supposed to be fully self-sufficient. I'm not sure what the Times Guide is, exactly, but is there another option that doesn't refer readers to another guide (if it is a guide)? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:14, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

1) The trivia section is Jonathan's, I'm ambivalent on it myself. It was originally an infobox; would it work better in that form?

I'll revert it back to an infobox. The reason I put it in the main text was because the main text area was blank. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 00:22, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

2) Yeah, prices at Champion's stadium "vary" because there's a bunch of different events that go on there. I was unable to find prices for the Braves' preseason games at all, mainly because there aren't any more until next spring. I could list GCL Braves ticket prices but that might be misleading. I can try to revise it to list the different events as separate listings if that would help.

3) I believe hours, as far as the line between breakfast/lunch and between lunch/dinner, are uniform throughout WDW, but the real problem is that the exact opening and closing times vary with the park hours. So, for instance, on days when the Magic Kingdom is open until 7pm, all of the restaurants that serve dinner will be open until about 7pm, but on days when the Magic Kingdom is open until 9pm, the restaurants will also be open later. In that respect, for any restaurant that serves breakfast or dinner (which is virtually all of them), their operating hours vary. I could use "park open-park close" but is that more useful than "Breakfast, lunch, dinner"? I don't know.

4) Re: Abbrevations. It had been my understanding that abbreviations were only needed in listings, but it appears I may have been mistaken. That said, I think an argument could be made for the areas of Hollywood Studios that are named after roads. They're not really streets themselves, just themed as such. Certainly the name of one of the stores on Sunset is Sunset Boulevard Shops, not Sunset Blvd. Shops. =) For the areas themselves, I can go either way, but I think the prose looks better with them spelled out. I note that existing star article Along the Magnificent Mile does not consistently abbreviate, so there is some precedent.

5) Get Around is only five paragraphs. It looks long because the map is so big. I think it's important to describe the lay of the land, so to speak, even if only for people who cannot see the map.

6) The Times Guide is a weekly publication from Disney listing parade and show times for each park. There is no possible way we or any other guide could present this information to the traveler. I should perhaps explain that somewhere in the article, if it's unclear. Suggestions for where to put the explanation are welcome.

--(WT-en) LtPowers 19:42, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

I agree with the WP policy, I don't see why trivia can't be integrated into the article, rather than kept separate. Those sort of asides make for good, readable travel writing—spread them out! I think it's fine to give a wide, approximate price spread for the stadium events. If you're having trouble figuring out what the range should be, give 'em a call. I assume the main article's understand section would be the best place—a brief "Visitor information" section is pretty standard.

I think using "open" and "close" for park opening/closing should be fine. If lunch follows a set time, say 11AM-2PM, you could use "open-2PM" or "11AM-close" for the hours fields. (On this topic, I can't find the actual park hours for WDW anywhere in the main article.) If lunch doesn't follow a set time, then all the more reason to nail down the opening/closing times. This issue is not hugely important, but star status entails a level of polish that leaves no smudge.

Oh, and the abbreviations policy came about after that article was written—it's an artifact, not a precedent ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:57, 12 July 2009 (EDT)

Park hours vary daily, and the weekly schedule varies seasonally, and the park hours are only set by Disney 2-3 months in advance. I don't think it's possible to represent that in the articles, beyond perhaps a general statement of same. Project:Abbreviations doesn't seem to require that abbreviations always be used without fail. Certainly we don't always abbreviate "United States of America" or "United Kingdom". For the others I'll see what I can do. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:28, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

I've made several revisions to the text. See Project:Abbreviations#Scope for a discussion on abbreviation requirements. I'm still working on trying to track down hours for the restaurants; they are extremely hard to find. Is that the last thing needed for your support, Peter? (WT-en) LtPowers 12:07, 13 July 2009 (EDT)

Yes, that's the only remaining substantive objection I have. I figured the restaurant hours would be hard to find, given the nature of the destination. At least the people you'd have to talk to speak English though—damned if I'll ever get the hours for those hole-in-the-wall pupuserías in DC... --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:52, 15 July 2009 (EDT)

At this point, I'm not certain that hours are consistent enough to put into our listings, but I'll keep looking. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:13, 16 July 2009 (EDT)

I found hours for most of the restaurants, although I can't personally vouch for accuracy. The one I couldn't find is the Wide World of Sports Cafe, but I suspect that's because hours vary widely depending on when events are scheduled; I can't see them keeping it open if there are no events. I hope the article now meets with your approval -- I'm still ready and willing to make further adjustments as necessary. (WT-en) LtPowers 21:21, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

Yep, looks great! Support. Nice work on this—paving new ground is tough. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:47, 19 July 2009 (EDT)

The article reads much better now. I like the tone. I just think the one phone number should be consistent, and we should resolve the See/Do vs See and Do on the article templates just to make sure this article is an example of the right way to do it. I support. --(WT-en) inas 05:49, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

Great, thanks. Can I ask which phone number you mean? (WT-en) LtPowers 09:41, 27 July 2009 (EDT)

Just did the phone number. The DC stars use an ampersand instead of slash. Personally, I think spell out and in full. --(WT-en) inas 23:49, 30 July 2009 (EDT)

I'm fine with any of the three, but we should discuss it somewhere more central. It's nothing that can't be easily changed once we make a final decision, fortunately. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:13, 31 July 2009 (EDT)

• Promoted. Thanks for your comments and support! (WT-en) LtPowers 17:15, 17 August 2009 (EDT)

Here we are again, folks. I think I've covered everything in this area of Walt Disney World, but it's a lot more involved than Hollywood Studios was. I appreciate questions and comments, especially related to issues that might not have come up in the Studios nomination.

Note: I plan to be adding an Epcot resorts map within a few days, but I think the article is complete without it and I didn't want to wait to start getting input.

-- (WT-en) LtPowers 16:42, 29 August 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Reads really well and is packed with info. A few of the restaurants seem to be missing hours, and more info for the Buy listings (nearly all of them are missing hours) would be nice, but otherwise it looks fine. Good work! (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 23:03, 29 August 2009 (EDT)
  • Thanks, I overlooked the hours for the Coral Reef and the ESPN Club. Kouzzina's hours are not yet set, AFAIK, since it's still in soft-opening mode. As for buy, I'll see what I can do, but all of the shops in the park operate from opening to closing time; in the hotels it's pretty much "all day" but I can understand that specifics would be useful. (WT-en) LtPowers 12:50, 30 August 2009 (EDT)
• Update. I've added the resorts map. I put it in the Eat section because most of the items on the map are restaurants and because the Eat section had room for it. =) I also have added the Candlelight Processional event to the Annual Festivals section. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:47, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

I'm very much aware it's my own little hobby horse, and I'll see if I can maybe do something to fix this myself, but either we should get rid of my little attempt to add some culture to the darn thing (which would make me sad, cause I really like it), or we need some work at the Italy, France and Canada sections in the world showcase. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 16:36, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

• Not sure. The descriptions of the World Showcase pavilions are pretty long, and they seem anything but relevant to the matter at hand. (Although I admit I did the Germany, Italy, France and Canada ones myself.) Seriously, I doubt the average visitor would be enticed by the historical/cultural/religious/etc. value. However, other than that I am impressed with the way the rest of the article turned out. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 21:10, 30 August 2009 (EDT)

• Support. Some Buy listings could use hours, but the article turned out nicely. I also think the descriptions are fun to read, so if anyone expands Canada, France, Germany and Italy, it would definitely be a star. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 06:39, 8 September 2009 (EDT)

• Update. I've tried my hand at improving the Germany, Italy, France, and Canada descriptions. I'm still looking for hours for the shops in the resorts, but they're hard to find. (On the other hand, they're generally open long hours; most visitors won't encounter any shops that are closed just because they've showed up too early or too late.) (WT-en) LtPowers 21:48, 8 September 2009 (EDT)

• Almost. The only thing I'd really like to see before starring are the hours for buy listings in the resorts. Non-essential things: 1) I don't think it's necessary to repeat the resort addresses for every eat, drink, buy, etc. listing—you could just state in the directions field what resort the listing is in (as you already have done). 2) I suggest you revisit your initial worry with the map, and find a good way to make Spaceship Earth more prominent (if you want to resurrect the SVG object I made, it's available here. As you said, it's not at all obvious where it is, and it should be. Especially for someone unfamiliar with the park, who just wants to print the map—until I read the article, I knew it only as "that big Epcott ball." Those things said, this is a very solid article—nice work! --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:51, 18 September 2009 (EDT)
  • I think the resort stores are usually open until 11 at night, and mostly they open up an hour or two before the parks open. That applies to the Disney resorts; for the Swan and Dolphin I can't be sure. For the map, I'll see what I can do; there didn't seem to be a lot of reaction to my original concern so I left it with just a light outline around the sphere's circumference. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:35, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

• Update. Maps, prose, and listings have been updated per the above comments -- please review and see if they meet with your approval. (WT-en) LtPowers 15:44, 1 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Should I assume the silence means approval? Or are there still improvements that must be made? (WT-en) LtPowers 13:01, 8 October 2009 (EDT)
    • Guess you should, my concerns have been adressed anyways, so i'd be happy to smack a Support after this one, great work. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 15:53, 8 October 2009 (EDT)
• Promoted. There doesn't seem to be any remaining opposition. Thanks for your input, everyone. (WT-en) LtPowers 19:53, 12 October 2009 (EDT)

The Mall is regularly put in the top five of lists of the world's most visited attractions, so it's desirable that we cover this one well. It's an odd district article, since it's basically a city park, and thus an exception to our usual rules about what does not get an article, so I'm not as confident as usual that this will pass the star nomination process, although I do feel it should.

I perused the other travel guides to see how they handled their Mall chapters, and I found that basically all of them are very similar to ours in terms of breadth and depth, with the one exception of the Rough Guide , which devotes something like 2–3 pages per museum/memorial! So they are describing the individual exhibits in detail, including temporary exhibits, and providing maps of the bigger museums. This is something that we could do, but I don't know if we should (it struck me as overkill): keeping exhibit information and maps up to date would be very work-intensive, so this route might leave us with perennially out of date information; we'd also be duplicating the free maps and exhibit information brochures right at the entrance to all the museums. For these reasons, we've decided against attraction maps for museums in the past.

So in sum, I'm nominating this article largely because I'm curious whether others think we are currently handling the Mall article properly—if we are, I think it's a star. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 06:26, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

• Support. It is very good. I have never been there, and I hate cities, but after reading the guide I am quite keen. There are a few issues with grammar, like "Not content to reside only on the document itself, their signatures have been reproduced here, etched in large granite blocks." but otherwise I like it. I have no idea of whether it is complete, as my ignorance of the place is almost total. It does seem to be a destination in its own right and there is certainly enough content for a stand-alone article. As a district it is somewhat unusual in that you cant sleep there or buy much, or by the look of things, drink at all. Nevertheless I can't see offhand how better to handle the article so I will support it as an exception. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 08:58, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
  • The grammar of that sentence looks fine to me. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:05, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

What is it that is not content? The signatures? Not a big issue though. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 10:22, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

Yes. Anthropomorphizing their signatures is an odd thing to do, but with all the writing in the D.C. guide, I need the occasional eccentric turn of phrase to keep from going to sleep ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 10:31, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

• Support. "Can you sleep there?" is a rule of thumb only; it is merely a means to an end. The "end", in this case, is distinguishing an attraction from a destination. While the National Mall may sit on the wide border between these two categories, I see no reason it shouldn't get its own travel guide. (That goes for just about any such location; if we can write a decent travel guide on it, we should.) (WT-en) LtPowers 14:53, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
  • Oh, just a note, though -- I assume you realize that the Supreme Court's location wasn't really considered as part of the original plan, right? There's one bit in there that implies otherwise, so I just wanted to make double-sure. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:55, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
• Support. Any article which mentions Stephen Colbert is good in my book. ;) It's really well-written and seems pretty thorough. And I'm not bothered at all by the fact that you can't sleep there - I think there's too much to see here to realistically pack it all into an adjacent district article. On a similiar note, I wonder how making this a star will impact our feelings on articles like Central Park? (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 17:38, 13 October 2009 (EDT)
• Support. An extremely well written article which makes me wish I had made an effort to spend time at the National Mall during several past visits to Washington. Some nice quirky touches Peter, superb map and top class imagery.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:41, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

I have been working for a while on my hometown, and I think it turned out nicely. This must be the most thorough coverage of Hilversum in any guidebook, as it is not a well-known travel destination... As I am not a native English speaker, there are probably things that can be improved. So I hope to get some advice and tips on how to make it better, and hopefully it will turn out as a star. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:46, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

• Looking good! Feels and reads like a thorough and complete guide. There are plenty of grammar errors sprinkled throughout the article, but they're easy enough to fix (I'll fix some myself when I get the time). A couple notes though - none of the Buy listings have hours, along with an Eat listing (Victor Consael) and a Drink listing (De Dokter), and there seems to be a lot of red links in here. I would look into fixing those two issues, but other than that it seems pretty good. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 23:22, 13 September 2009 (EDT)

• Update. Yeah, the grammar errors are my fault, as I am not a native English writer ^^ I did not add the 'buy' hours on purpose, as they are all the same -- they follow the general shopping mall hours (and it's such a long list of hours). But for clarity, we could add them like this: M 1PM-6PM, Tu-W, F 10AM-6PM, Th 10AM-9PM, Sa 10AM-5PM, Su closed. I added the hours for Victor Consael and De Dokter. All the links I added are of the official website, but it couldn't hurt to look it through once more. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 11:19, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

I think you misunderstood my last point - by "red links" I don't mean the external links, I mean the links to other towns which don't have Wikivoyage articles, such as Vinkeveen and Baarn in Get in. It just doesn't look very good; I usually just remove the link and leave the name of the town, until they have an article. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 19:17, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

Ah yes, I misunderstood. I removed the red links, except in the 'Get Out' section. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:36, 14 September 2009 (EDT)

For the record, I believe red links on a Wiki are to be encouraged, where appropriate. Red links encourage article creation, which is vital for the health of a Wiki. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:51, 22 September 2009 (EDT)

I agree with LtPowers. Red links for valid cities should never be removed. If red links are so unbearable, then it's better to make them outlines than the get rid of them. As mentioned above, it encourages users to make these pages and shows us where there is work to be done rather than providing a false sense of completeness. Oh, and I support Hilversum, as well. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 23:21, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

• Support - Museum Hilversum and Fortuna's Pool Garden lacks opening hours, and I'd like to see some descriptions in the Internet section, but that's minor issues. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 14:47, 28 September 2009 (EDT)

I added the hours for Museum Hilversum and modified the internet descriptions somewhat, Will add the hours of the pool center later. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 20:08, 29 September 2009 (EDT)

• Support (belatedly). Fantastic article, great work—I especially love this photo! I feel confident in assuming it to be the best guide to the city out there. Two suggestions to make the map a little more readable: 1) change map icon fonts to bitstream vera sans bold & enlarge a bit for better readability & 2) do the same for map text (street names, mostly) to bitstream vera sans bold for better readability when printed. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 06:04, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

• I will change the font of the map in the coming days. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 19:56, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

• Support, English is a little exotic in places, but has an appropriately Dutch feel to it. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 10:17, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

About 5 weeks since nomination now, Any outstanding issues? (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 16:14, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

• Update, I fixed all the issues, except for the hours of Fortuna's Pool Garden. I cannot find them online, so I'll cycle over there tomorrow to check myself. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 21:02, 1 November 2009 (EST)

• Update. Also fixed Fortuna's hours, so now there are no outstanding issues left anymore. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 17:02, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Please do the honours yourself, I've heard it's mighty satisfying :) --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 21:06, 6 November 2009 (EST)

Motivation: This is the second dive site to reach the stage where it can be considered for Star status, and it is sufficiently different from Long Beach (nominated above) to be a useful comparison. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 08:11, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

We're breaking new ground here, so I imagine there will be some issues to iron out, but to kick this one of.

• The position paragraph feels a bit awkward, maybe it will look better if the coordinates are just moved to the top and the info incorporated in the introduction.
• The depth paragraph could use a rephrase.
• It's a normal star criteria, that I think also fits here, that all "attractions" should be marked on the map; in this case I'm missing the the cave, the islet and especially the entry gully - it took me a while to to see that red path, let alone figure out this is probably the one leading to entry point. Also that green line is lost on me - pebbles/sand border?

Other than that, this is awesome work! And I like the feel of this guide much better than than the other nomination btw, it reads much more easily. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 10:54, 13 October 2009 (EDT)

Thanks for the comments Stefan.

• I have rewritten the position paragraph. I am not sure what you mean in your comment. Are you suggeting that the information is put into the leader paragraph with the coordinates first item on the page? (and delete the 'Position' subsection). This would be possible with this site, but for some sites it may be necessary to provide more complex information involving bearings and distances, so the idea was to keep all that sort of information in one place. Moving the position subsection ahead of the access subsection might be an improvement, so I will look at that possibility.
• I have rewritten the depth paragraph. I dont know if it is much better. It should be a little clearer at least.
• Your comments on the map are valid. I will sort this out. Add labels for attractions and landmarks and make the path clearer.
• Thanks for the appreciation. A lot of hours went into mapping this site, as I swam each of the contour lines towing a GPS to record a track. The green line is, as you assume, the border between pebbles and sand. As all the colour codes for the water are depth bands, I didnt want to confuse the issue by using a colour code for bottom type. Not sure how to improve this, but will give it some thought.
• This site is very different from the other, which is why I chose to nominate them together, as any style and layout decisions should be applicable to both. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 09:12, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

I have made the changes to the map, but although the full size image is changed, the thumbnail remains the same even after purging the cache for the page. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 15:01, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

The new map shows up on my PC, so it's probably a local catching issue. Anyway, went over the article again, and my biggest remaining worry is that long list of nudibranches - long lists in articles are not my cup of tea - so I thought it over, and came up with a suggestion for a different organisation on the talk page. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 16:52, 14 October 2009 (EDT)

• Interesting and very well written. Stefan's suggestions about the Nudibranch section on the talk page are very apt I think. A few other comments:

• I am wondering why the Understand section comes after Get in? That jars a bit.
• As a point of grammar, initial capitals are surely wrong when giving an English name of a species? Eg: ghost nudibranch and not Ghost nudibranch.
• Internal link markup is largely absent in the article. Eg: Gordon's Bay.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:56, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

Hi Burmesedays.

• I am still trying to think of a better way to deal with the nudibranchs. I dont want to have to leave out the ones I dont have photos for, and red links in a gallery would not look good.
• Understand after Get in can be changed if there is consensus or at least a second opinion. I don't have strong feelings about it. It is something that just happened as the formatting developed.
• My position on capitalising English names of species is mildly pragmatic. If I dont capitalise, in some cases it is impossible to tell if it is a proper name for the species or just a description. Agile klipfish is the accepted common name for a particular species. How would you know this if it was written as agile klipfish? If I do it for one, I would prefer for consistency to do it for all. I am open to discussion here.
• Good point on internal links. I will sort this out. Unfortunately I have about 150 dive sites to correct, but that just means it will take a while. You get this with R&D. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 13:13, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

Regarding the missing pictures of Nudibranches, have you tried looking here and here? All those a freely licensed, and egliable for upload here. I understand if you don't find it entirely kosher to have "nudi" pictures from another site, but I always find myself rooting for pragmatism :) I'll be happy to try and help locate any missing pictures if you tell me which ones you are missing. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^Talk 16:30, 19 October 2009 (EDT)

I have put in internal links in the leader paragraph of all the Cape Peninsula and False Bay sites.

• I will try out Get in after Understand. It makes sense.
• I will also look at how the article looks with a gallery as suggested, using photos from other sites as placeholders. Thanks for the links, Stefan. Many of the relevant photos were taken by a friend. Not really surprising I suppose. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 12:18, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Stefan and Burmesedays:

• I have rearranged the order of sections as suggested by Burmesedays, and moved "Position" into "Understamd", where it seems a little more at home. I am still hoping for a better heading than "Topography" for that section, but still have not thought of an improvement. "Layout" is the only alternative that seems appropriate, but I am not quite happy with it. (Topography is technically accurate, but maybe a bit technical)
• I would like opinions on the new arrangement: Keep, Revert or Try again?

I'm happy with it, I follows our general guidelines as far as it's feasible without sacrificing usability for those who really need it, the divers. Topography is fine in my book, where as "Suggested Routes" could probably be renamed to our standard "Itineraries" without sacrificing anything (I think?). That nudibranch list is still a (and about the only) dealbraker for me though, for a star guide I'm not really happy with good enough. If you can come up with a different way of presenting them from my suggestion I'd be more than willing to listen, but currently it doesn't have that professional feel that we generally want from our stars - so I'd really like to see if that gallery fixes that nagging feeling. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 17:25, 22 October 2009 (EDT)

Thanks Stefan, How would you feel about just "Routes"? Itineraries sounds a bit grandiose for an underwater swim. Maybe someone else will venture a second opinion.

I will get out a test run of your gallery suggestion, as I cant think of anything better. Maybe it will look better than I expect. (WT-en) Pbsouthwood 02:23, 23 October 2009 (EDT)

I have re-arranged the section as a gallery. It does not appear to work for the printable version. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 10:56, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

• Support cool, think I'm happy now. Once we finally get a Mediawiki upgrade and access to common.js, it should be made collapsible, until then I'll be happy to slap a star after this one - great work. And the printable version works fine for me btw. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 11:21, 26 October 2009 (EDT)

• Very well done Peter. Having the understand section first really does help. And the gallery works nicely. My only slight caveat is the map. I think it is compulsory that a Star article should have a Wikivoyageised map? You obviously put a lot of work into getting the data for this map. I can have a go at Wikivoyageising it a little if you want and upload for you to check? I see that just a png is uploaded, do you have a svg version of the map? Otherwise it is a lot of re-tracing. Otherwise, the article seems perfect to me. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:30, 7 November 2009 (EST)

Hi Burmesedays, I see you have been quite active with mapwork recently. All my maps were done on CorelDraw, so are originally vector graphics. Unfortunately I have not yet found out how to convert an output from CorelDraw to SVG. I can produce any of the file types optional to CorelDraw 9, but then I am stuck. Do you have any suggestions? Converting the map manually will be at least tens of hours of work. the original took probably over 100 hours, not counting the sitework. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 01:10, 8 November 2009 (EST)

Hi Peter. I am not a CorelDraw user so have no idea. It is apparently possible to output svg though in version 10 or newer. Anyone else ever managed this? If not, a re-trace in Inkscape is certainly possible and I am happy to try this - I did the main land section of this map quite quickly yesterday. Perhaps though someone else should put forward a view as to whether a WT style map is necessary for the article to gain star status. As I said, apart from that, to my eye this is now a star article. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:25, 8 November 2009 (EST)

Hi Burmesedays, Your "output svg" link does not work for me. I will upload the Coreldraw file to shared when I get back home later today so anyone who wants to try the conversion can have a go. Unfortunately upgrading CorelDraw is not a financially sensible option at this stage. I dont use it enough to justify the expense just to be able to output SVG files, which I only need for Wikivoyage at present. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 02:15, 8 November 2009 (EST)

It seems like you cant get there from here. Shared will not upload the source file as a .cdr. If anyone wants to try converting it I will have to mail it direct. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 02:47, 8 November 2009 (EST)

Is CDR your only available output format? If you can export it as a WMF or PDF or EPS then InkScape can open it. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:10, 8 November 2009 (EST)

A flat file will not be helpful. The idea here was to get Peter's CorelDraw9 file into CorelDraw10 so that it can be exported as an SVG. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:03, 8 November 2009 (EST)

My apologies for not leaving a detailed critique—I feel a little out of my depth (har har), given that I've regrettably never gone further than snorkeling ;) I do agree, though, that the map should at least approximate Wikivoyage style (recognizing that it's simply amazing that you've swam the contour lines to complete it!). The article status requirements are a little disorganized, since to this date we have had very few non-city/district articles become stars, but the map in Wikivoyage style with modifiable vector source has consistently been held to be a requirement. Converting the map to Wikivoyage style is fairly simple—just slap on the standard WT compass arrow, title box, and scale. Converting to SVG may be harder. If you can convert it to a PDF file, that likely can be imported into Inkscape and then saved as an SVG.

On a different note, the article as it stands seems in violation of Wikivoyage:Image policy#Minimal_use_of_images. My inclination is not to simply dump the excellent, useful photos, but rather to at least make the article format more print friendly by putting the image gallery at the very bottom of the page. That will also save users who cannot print in color, since the nudibranch images won't be very useful in B&W. It doesn't solve the potential problem of low bandwidth in internet cafes, but I'm not inclined to let this hold up a star nomination. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 03:59, 9 November 2009 (EST)

Burmesedays, what do you mean by "flat file"? I'm only familiar with the term in the context of databases. (WT-en) LtPowers 08:55, 9 November 2009 (EST)

Sorry for the Jargon. The Adobe-familiar like me use that term to mean a file in which the layers have been flattened and are no longer editable as individually defined vectors or layers. So, I meant a file with no editable layers. Like a PDF. Please put me right if I am wrong (and I am an Inkscape novice), but I don't see how Inkscape would handle a PDF any more helpfully than the PNG which is already available? If there is way for Inkscape to determine the layering of a flat file which has been exported as a PDF from a program like CD or any of the Adobe design family, please tell me how - that would be both surprising and great to know! Cheers. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:43, 9 November 2009 (EST)

Apologies, yes; I was just thinking of vector formats without thinking about whether all of the layers are still in there or not. I don't think a PDF is necessarily flattened, but I don't actually know. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:35, 9 November 2009 (EST)

Yup. As far as I know you can maintain individual layer editing capabilities in PDF output, but only specific to the program which the PDF was created in. Eg you can create a PDF with Photoshop which retains the layer structure which can be edited later in Photoshop only. Not sure that it can be done generically but I am by no means an expert on this. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 04:00, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Hi Peter,

1. What features of Wikivoyage style do you consider essential for a dive site map? A dive site is inherently a little different to a regional or city map, so there may be features not appropriate for a dive site.
2. Possibly a work-around would be to make a Wikivoyage map as well, without the contours etc, which shows the basic layout of the site with the road, path, and labels for the features, and keep a slightly simplified version of the contour map, perhaps with less text? The contours are valuable information for the traveller, and I think the information should stay, but I dont know of a rule against more than one map, or that all maps must be of the same style.
3. What do you feel about putting the gallery in a sub-article to the dive site, with a link, and reduced captions, and just the text on the dive site article. This will mean that the gallery sub article would be a sub-sub-article: Diving the Cape Peninsula and False Bay/Pinnacle/Gallery and I dont know how that would fit in with policy. I think it might go against the letter of the law, but might still be a good way to deal with this type of problem, specially the bandwidth problem. Jani may have useful comment here, about how these options would fit in with printed versions through Wikivoyage Press. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 09:54, 9 November 2009 (EST)

I did not intend to open a can of worms when I suggested a Wikivoyageised map would be good. I do not know what Peter might be considering as appropriate, but when I volunteered to prepare it, I had in mind:

• colour scheme to be more in line with the general look of WT maps.
• a standard WT north arrow
• road name(s) (is that a 2nd road behind the one marked R44?)
• dotted line for footpath
• a standard WT inset title box
• WT dejavu fonts
• WT scale format
• A second scale showing the extent of depth band changes
• Some indication of where the road routes out lead to ---(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:25, 9 November 2009 (EST)

Oh, I absolutely did not mean that you should remove the contour lines! Burmesedays' suggestions sound good to me. The standard WT color scheme might be hard to reconcile with the type of information you are displaying, but I don't think that's of critical importance. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:05, 9 November 2009 (EST)

I have been trying to convert the cdr file to svg. It has not been going well. So far, after about 6 hours work, I have produced what appears to be a flat image with major losses, distortions and colour changes. I downloaded and installed Python 2.6 and some other required software, installed Uniconvert, finally worked out how to get the paths sorted out and managed to get it to run using a .cdr input. It produced a distorted result, without layers, but apparently editable. I also tried exporting as an .ai file and converting that in the same way, but all I got was pages of error messages. My skills with Inkscape are also dismal, and nothing seems to work the way I would expect. (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 05:23, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Peter, please email me the cdr file (untouched - exactly as when saved from CD9). I have a few professional graphic design contacts and know that one of them will have CD10. We will get there :). If that works and we get svg output OK, I will have a go at Wiktiravelising the map a little and post it on shared for your comment. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:49, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Hi Burmesedays, I have had some success with Inkscape since my last comment. Most of the distortions and apparent losses were due to layer loss and shape order loss. All text has gone too, but that is manageable. I have managed to reconstruct most of the map, but it would be really interesting to see how it would work in a direct save from CorelDraw 10 to SVG, so I am keen to send you the file, but there does not appear to be a way to attach the file to the e-mail through Wikivoyage. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 10:42, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Pleased you have made some progress. I know very well how tricky Inkscape is when you first try to get to grips with it :). I have just sent you my email address.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 10:47, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Peter the export to svg worked fine from CorelDraw ver 13.0. I have made a few quick suggestions on the map (drawn a depth scale, added a standard WT inset box, direction out markers, standarised fonts, WT north arrow) and uploaded both the svg and png. The depth scale needs labelling and I notice that I missed the yellow islet label. I have no idea how to handle the sand/pebble demarcation and maybe that has to go? I will leave it in your capable hands to accept these changes or not, and to make any more you deem necessary. Cheers and I hope that is helpful. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:48, 10 November 2009 (EST)

Burmesedays,

Well done, the svg came out beautifully, Much better than my attempt with UniConvert. This is definitely the way to go. I see that the layers have been lost this way too, but I can reconstruct that if necessary. The pebble demarcation can go for the present, I may come up with a better option, but what was there was always a bit of a place marker for a better idea. I will get to touching up the map as soon as I have a bit of free time again, as I must prepare a lecture for Saturday. One thing I would like to do though is put back the compass rose, as the map is intended to be usable as a chart, for compass navigation, and that makes it much easier to read off a direction. Do you have the raw conversion svg? If so could you mail it to me direct?

I also worked out how to download the svg's. I have been left-clicking on them like I would do for any other link, and kept getting "Data not available message", which was not particularly helpful. For some reason unknown to me, I decided to right click today, and select "Save target as". Immediate success. Is this how it works for everyone or is my browser being difficult? Once I have the svg downloaded, it will open in IE no problem. There is no instruction anywhere to right-click and "save as". I will play around with the map for a while and see what looks best. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 14:46, 12 November 2009 (EST)

Burmesedays. Thanks for the original, I have replaced the compass rose. It works quite well as it stands for colour and monochrome, but I am willing to tweak it if anyone thinks it can be improved. It is my intention to produce a PD template for dive charts once the details are settled. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 03:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)

Update on some of the issues raised earlier:

• colour scheme to be more in line with the general look of WT maps.

I dont think this will work, but will consider suggestions.

• a standard WT north arrow

This does not provide the navigation information in a compass rose. If there are cosmetic changes recommended for the compass rose I will modify it.

• road name(s) (is that a 2nd road behind the one marked R44?)

Road name added, road at the back is a service road of no importance to a diver. I could put information with arrows if anyone thinks it is worth the effort and of any use. The road is from the R44 to a pump station and filtration plant on the mountainside treating water from the Steenbras dam.

• dotted line for footpath

Done by Burmesedays. Looks good to me.

• a standard WT inset title box

Done by Burmesedays, I have moved it to a legend box at the side. This appears to be compatible with Wikivoyage map style, and looks cleaner to me. Negotiable.

• WT dejavu fonts

Done: I used DejaVu Sans Condensed Bold mostly, Is seems to have good legibility. Colours chosen to give good contrast on colour and monochrome display.

• WT scale format

Is this necessary with the scales on the edges? I would prefer to keep these as I think they are more useful to the user. Only reason I can see for other scale is to include feet.

• A second scale showing the extent of depth band changes

Done by Burmesedays

• Some indication of where the road routes out lead to

Done. Made new style arrow, which looks better to me.

I have used the blue numbered WT icons for the points of interest instead of text on the body of the chart as they are more legible and less intrusive. Awaiting comments. Cheers, -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 03:06, 14 November 2009 (EST)

Support. Sorry it has taken me so long to unequivocally state that. You have broken new ground here and set the bar for diving articles and deserve huge credit for that. Very well done.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:32, 16 November 2009 (EST)

Hey, its a tough job but somebody's got to do it:-) Seriously, though, your help has been of great value and is much appreciated. I wouldn't have got so far without it. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 14:18, 16 November 2009 (EST)

I have also done an experimental sub-article gallery for the nudibranch images as I suggested in item 3 above, leaving the text in the Pinnacle article. This will reduce the bandwidth problem and looks quite pracical to me. I quite like the result, but would like comment or consensus to leave it this way, as it is a significant precedent. There is some duplication of text content, but I think this is necessary for clarity. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 04:35, 14 November 2009 (EST)

This article was nominated 6 to 7 weeks ago and all comments from users (if only three of them) have been more than adequately dealt with. I would therefore propose that the article is immediately given star guide status. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:35, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I believe this article is now up to the standards established with Epcot and Hollywood Studios. All attractions are listed, as well as all restaurants and hotels. I believe the map is about as good as possible, although I'm not 100% happy with it; suggestions are welcome. (Suggestions are also welcome for the rest of the article, too, of course.) (WT-en) LtPowers 15:35, 20 November 2009 (EST)

• Support. A very well written and formatted article. One small comment on the map - you might want to show a label with a directional arrow for Rafiki's Planet Watch on the main map. It took me a while to figure out where Rafiki's was in relation to the main map. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:13, 22 November 2009 (EST)

• Support. Can't find anything wrong with it myself, although I like Burmesedays' suggestion. (WT-en) PerryPlanet ^Talk 17:57, 23 November 2009 (EST)

• Support. I am absolutely impressed by the way this came out. (WT-en) Jonathan 784 11:24, 25 November 2009 (EST)

• Comment. I've added a label to the main map directing readers to the inset. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:57, 27 November 2009 (EST)
• Promoted. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:53, 14 December 2009 (EST)

Although the bar for star region status is set very high, I think Bali is now up that standard. There are no articles to use as comparative benchmarks as this would be WT's first ever star region article if the nomination is successful. Indeed there are only two guide region articles here of which Bali is one.

Apart from the usual star guide considerations, star region guide status requires that all sub-region articles and all linked city/other destination articles are guide or better. Bali meets those structural requirements - all five sub-region articles are guides as are 19 of the 29 individual city/destination articles (and the other 10 are all usable). I realise that this is an ambitious nomination but it is one that I think is warranted. The requirements have been considered and extensively discussed in advance of this nomination. All comments are of course very welcome. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:37, 22 November 2009 (EST)

In general, I support the nomination — Bali is a major destination and we have a lot of good information, well-written & well-organised — but, as I read the requirements and text above, there are 10 articles that need to be brought up to guide before the top-level one can be promoted to star. (WT-en) Pashley 01:57, 22 November 2009 (EST)

Initially that is how I read it as well and that would in fact be near-impossible. However, it is the 7+2 cities and other destinations linked from the top level article that need to be at guide status. In the case of Bali there are nine of each and all 18 articles (plus one other) are at guide status together with the 5 sub-regions. This is discussed here and here--(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:27, 22 November 2009 (EST)

OK, full support from me, then. (WT-en) Pashley 03:37, 22 November 2009 (EST)

• Support. Our Bali guides are now absolutely top-notch, resulting from the tireless great work Burmesedays has put into them. While the guide is only just now meeting the strict requirements for region guide star status, it also surpasses them, especially with all the subregion & city/town maps—to my count the guide has 23 maps! A first star region guide (hopefully I'm not being too presumptuous in thinking that this will pass the nomination) is a very important milestone for the site. Not long ago, our huge city articles were generally pretty weak, but the establishment of a few "templates" has led to them becoming a strength—I'm hoping Bali and its subregion articles will serve as a similar template for region articles. I won't leave the usual detailed critique, as my long list of concerns have already been met on the Bali talk page, starting with Talk:Bali#Push_for_guide_status. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)

• Support, with a couple of comments.

1. The West Bali National Park is colour coded differently to what I would expect from the legend, where it is grouped with Negara, Gilimanuk etc. The legend colour box is a light purple, and the park is dark green. This is slightly confusing until you look at the high resolution map. I wonder if it would not be worth putting in a green color box for the park as a sub region of West Bali to make the coding clearer?

It seems to be standard WT practice to include large national parks on a region map (where possible) using the standard WT park pattern/colour and then labelling them. I think it would be confusing to include the park in the colour key as it is not a defined region. Maybe the answer is to make the park label larger? I will leave that in (WT-en) Peter's capable hands as he drew this splendid map. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)

That should do the trick. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 07:46, 24 November 2009 (EST)

1. Drink section: Avocado is mentioned as a "desert fruit" in the drink section. As this is a drink section, I am guessing it is blended into a liquid, but this isn't clear. Interesting though, and combination with chocolate is fascinating. Does it have a name?

Ummm.. it is a dessert not desert fruit :). It does explain that the avocado is blended with sugar and ice, so it is a liquid yes. I will make that clearer. The concoction when laced with chocolate syrup does not have a specific name that I know of - just jus alpokat or alpukat (avocado juice). Thanks very much for taking the time to read the article in detail. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:08, 22 November 2009 (EST)

• Oops.
• Least I could do :-).

1. I noticed that there was no star nomination box in the article, so I took the liberty of putting it in. Cheers, -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 12:58, 22 November 2009 (EST)

• Full & unconditional" support (WT-en) jan 04:26, 23 November 2009 (EST)

• Not sure. I note a few problems which may be minor, but I think an increased level of scrutiny is in order for a star article.
  1. The prose is generally good, but the lead section in particular is very dry. It tells me nothing about why I would want to visit until the third paragraph, and even then just mentions a) the varied landscape, b) the culture (without explaining anything about why the culture is interesting, c) that it's popular and wins awards, and d) it has something to offer everyone. Frankly, those four reasons to visit could be used on virtually any travel guide. What makes Bali unique, and why would I want to go there?
  2. Numerous grammatical irregularities scattered throughout the article, although I can probably fix most of those myself.
  3. The listing for "funerals" seems out of place under "Festivals" where everything else is talking about regularly scheduled, island-wide events.
  4. The listings of books under "Read" should better distinguish book titles from authors. Having it all in italics is visually confusing.
  5. The listing for Tourism information just says "166". Where is this simple three-digit number valid? Is it usable with a country code from outside Bali? Or is it purely for calling from within Bali? Or anywhere in Indonesia?
  6. By plane: I'd like to see the name of the airport bolded. Also, the link for Ngurah Rai Airport doesn't work for me. Finally, the next sentence about its name being misleading is itself confusing -- if the name was "Denpasar Airport", then I can see its location outside of Denpasar being confusing, but how does "Ngurah Rai Airport" mislead about the airports location relative to Denpasar?
  7. Putting a space between "US$" and the dollar amount is contrary to established style.
  8. Using "etc." in prose strikes me as lazy writing; I'd avoid it.
  9. The word "bemo" is used in "Get in" but undefined until "Get around"; just adding the word "minivan" after it may be sufficient to alleviate this concern.
  10. In "By bus", the link to Lombok is corrupted.
  11. No prices for the ferry services from Java. It's also worded oddly, with the ferries going from Bali to Java, even though this is the "Get In" section.
  12. "Driving is on the left-hand side" belongs in "By self-drive car or motorbike".
  13. In "See", I'd like to see the temple paragraphs broken out into their own section.
  14. I'd consider putting the information on currency-exchange scams into "Buy", but I'm not sure.
  15. I'd incorporate most of "Stay healthy" into "Stay safe", with the yoga information moved to "Do". Some more information about hospitals and availability of medical services might be nice, though, and would better fill out a "Stay healthy" section.
  16. If all of the consulates are Denpasar, just say so once rather than listing it every time.
  • Overall a very very good article. I still need to evaluate the sub-articles to make sure they're actually at guide status, but I don't anticipate that being a problem. Well done. (WT-en) LtPowers 13:37, 23 November 2009 (EST)

Thank you taking the time go through the article so thoroughly. As Peter has already pointed out, this nomination is a potentially siginificant milestone for WT and the article should be scrutinised very carefully. To deal with each of your points seriatim:

• 1. I think that the opening paras are succinct and to the point and that information about why anyone should visit Bali and its unique nature belong in the Understand section and not in the opening paragraphs which would otherwise by necessity become too long?
• 2. Please do.
• 3. Not really. Odalan ceremonies are also very much local festivals with no schedule and are also mentioned on this section. If non-scheduled ceremonies need to be separated then we could create two sections - Festivals and Ceremonies.
• 4 & 5. Done.
• 6. Link and emboldening fixed. The airport name confuses a huge number of people. The official name is Ngurah Rai International, Denpasar, Bali (coded DPS for Denpasar), or more casually Denpasar's Ngurah Rai (as in the article). So stating that the airport is not actually in Denpasar is a valid clarification I think.
• 7. I will fix those.
• 8. Indeed and will fix.
• 9. Done.
• 10. Fixed.
• 11. That whole section was a bit backwards - good spot - and I have fixed. On ferry prices, better to have none I think to be consistent with having no flight pricing? I have removed the one price that was there.
• 12. Done.
• 13. Not sure. Would like some other views on that.
• 14. Personally, I would look for currency scam information in Stay safe and not in Buy. But either way I guess. Other views on this?
• 15. I must confess that I am not really au fait with the guidelines for Stay safe and Stay healthy sections. I will have a good look at these sections and re-classify as necessary.
• 16. Sadly they are not all in Denpasar (even though the honorary title says that). I have though removed Bali from all the addresses in line with MoS.

Thanks again and I hope I have succesfully addressed at least some of your concerns. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:10, 23 November 2009 (EST)

I think LtPowers' critique of the lead section is spot on. I'd cut out all the "facts" (possibly move/integrate them into the understand section), and then keep and expound upon some of the better content in the third and fourth paragraphs. Try starting with something like:

Bali, the famed Island of the Gods, with its varied landscape of hills and mountains, rugged coastlines and sandy beaches, lush rice terraces and barren volcanic hillsides—all providing a picturesque backdrop to its colorful, deeply spiritual and unique culture, stakes a serious claim to be paradise on earth.

It doesn't have to be terribly long, or terribly informative—it should just be a good way to introduce the destination, call out what makes it distinctive, and motivate readers to keep reading. Our better huge-city articles could probably serve for some inspiration. Recent efforts have tended towards two–three short paragraphs, although Singapore offers a good example of one more succinct. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 00:37, 24 November 2009 (EST)

I had a go, please check. To be frank though, I have re-written this article (and the other 29) so many times now, I think I am all out of words - wood for the trees and all that. It might be better if somebody else does any changes to the style of prose. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 02:05, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Currency scams seem more appropriate in Stay safe to me. Agree on moving Yoga into "Do", and will have a look at the Temples.-- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 07:53, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Yoga moved. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:12, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Just looked at "See" again. I agree that there is a need for some heading for the temples, and probably also for beaches and mountains, just to draw attention to the start of a different subject. A heading equivalent to Monuments would, I think, be appropriate, but that could also be done by reducing the Monuments header to a simple bold word in its own paragraph and doing the same for the others. -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 08:03, 24 November 2009 (EST)

Re-organised the section. I grouped beach, volcanoes, rice terraces etc under a new Landscape sub-section of See. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:12, 24 November 2009 (EST)

also drew and loaded a temple layout diagram and will expand the text to define some of the structures shown. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:36, 25 November 2009 (EST)

Looks good. Diagram and explanation helps too. Worth the effort I think! -- (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 03:03, 25 November 2009 (EST)

• Support - though one quibble, with over 3 million people living outside Denpasar, is there no major hospitals outside the capital? like Rumah Sakit Umum in Singaraja, or this one in Ubud, I'd find that more useful than 5 in Denpasser, you'd have to pick at random anyway, but I don't know whether those are real major hospitals or more like clinics. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 21:57, 24 November 2009 (EST)

I can see why you might think so as there are 33 official public hospitals in Bali. The ones listed though are the ones that definitely have proper ER facilities (which was the benchmark for inclusion). I suspect that one of the Singaraja hospitals might have as may RSU Klungkung and RSU Tabanan. I have no way of being sure of that though. The example you gave in Ubud is a clinic with maternity facilities. From a traveller's point of view though, surely nobody choses which ER to go to? And more minor injuries will be dealt with in one of the English-speaking clinics specifically set up for visitors (listed in the next sub-section). I will try to add some more of those to give a broader geographical spread. Thanks for taking the time to read the article Stefan. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:29, 25 November 2009 (EST)

OK done on the clinics. There is now at least one clinic shown for each region. Not possible with ER hospitals I am afraid. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 01:58, 25 November 2009 (EST)

Cool cool, I'm a happy camper then :) --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 20:00, 26 November 2009 (EST)

I think it's safe to say that Bali got enough support. It's been hanging in the air for weeks now, let's make it a star :) (WT-en) Globe-trotter 10:57, 11 December 2009 (EST)

It hasn't been quite three weeks yet—we should wait until 13 Dec. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 11:17, 11 December 2009 (EST)

That and the grammar and spelling are not yet "perfect" as the Star requirements require. I've taken a pass at the first several sections and will take a look at the rest of it later, but I'd appreciate some additional eyes on it. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:52, 12 December 2009 (EST)

If someone will nominate a section that needs work on grammar and spelling I will give it a go, but dont have time to go through the whole article again. Those sections I have looked at recently look good to me. Cheers, (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 01:58, 18 December 2009 (EST)

I did today some proof reading based on LtPowers comments and made some minor changes (mostly commas, word order and deleting phrases). The article is consistent and very good. I suggest we switch to star. (WT-en) jan 06:35, 19 December 2009 (EST)

This nomination appears to be receiving an unusual level of scrutiny over style and grammar. Some of the changes made have certainly worsened readibility and indeed, grammar. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 03:42, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I apologize if I made any mistakes in my attempts at correction; feel free to revert as appropriate. But I will not apologize for the level of scrutiny; it is not my fault if the "perfect grammar and spelling" requirement is not always respected. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:41, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I share the view of Burmeseday that the bar for Bali is significantly higher than with other Star nominations which passed through in the past. LtPowers: Policy states near-perfect grammatically because i think we will never reach perfection with language (non of us is professor in linguistic i dare to assume and otherwise we need an academic council to decide on grammar if we can not agree). (WT-en) jan 12:00, 22 December 2009 (EST)

The checklist very clearly says "perfect". That means, at the time of promotion, it should be as good as it possibly can be. The article status text, which is what says "near-perfect", hedges its bets because the grammar and spelling may have degraded slightly from further editing after promotion. At least that's how I would guess the wording was chosen. (WT-en) LtPowers 17:15, 22 December 2009 (EST)

A checklist is not policy, and I don't see a problem of grammar in the article significant enough to hold up the nomination. And of course, the problem with such an objection, is that it's not clear what you want altered—it would be easier for you to correct the mistakes you've found than publish them here for correction... A dilemma. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:32, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I got another nitpick: what about the use of - or — in the cities and other destination lists? It seems like the article template claims that - should be used, while Bali is using — . As this is running for star, and will be a model for future regions, should this be kept or changed? (WT-en) Globe-trotter 17:50, 22 December 2009 (EST)

We're without consensus on this, see Wikivoyage_talk:One-liner_listings#disclaimerbox (there is more discussion on that fairly trivial topic on that page and at Project:Spelling#Hyphens, en dashes, and em dashes). I think we've basically agreed to disagree until a consensus develops, and allow for differing styles. It may be pedantic, but I still hold that using hyphens is simply improper grammar, as a hyphen is only ever used properly to hyphenate , while an mdash is used for setting off a clause, which is precisely what we are doing in one-liner lists. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 17:57, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I am definitely a culprit on mdashes vs hyphen usage. Mostly out of laziness I have to admit. Peter is certainly correct in his assertions above. Would be helpful if there was quick wiki code for a dash as seven characters to create one is just plain ugly. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)

And as we are in pedantry mode :). Using a dash to set off a one liner description phrase with no initial capital and no period can be justified. But the lack of initial capital and full stop looks very strange when a second sentence appears. Eg in Bali this is fine I think :

• Candidasa — a quiet coastal town, the Bali Aga and gateway to the east coast

But this is not:

• Kuta — surfer central, by far the most heavily developed area in Bali. Lots of shopping and night-life and the centre of lower-end party culture on Bali --(WT-en) Burmesedays 22:16, 22 December 2009 (EST)

See Wikivoyage_talk:One-liner_listings#Relaxing_the_rules_a_bit. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:32, 22 December 2009 (EST)

I think the whole nomination turns out to become a bizarre story that demotivates a couple of very good contributors. I think we should be able to reach consensus. The checklist is not part of the policy as Peter stated above and therefore near-perfection should be fine (I wonder how this definition will be interpreted) LtPowers: As you are the main opponent of the promotion can you either fix your open issues in the next week or detail sections which are concerning you? There are a couple of very willing contributors (Peter, Burmeseday, I) who would reread sections if you name them. (WT-en) jan 05:40, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Apologies; as I said above, I did take a pass at the grammar and spelling but didn't get all the way through the article. I didn't realize you were waiting on me. I haven't had a chance to look through the subsequent changes to see what's been improved. This is our first region star, however, and I'd like it to be as good as possible. I'm very surprised at the lax attitude toward grammar and spelling here. I'll take a look shortly and see where the article stands. (WT-en) LtPowers 09:22, 23 December 2009 (EST)

The article history will show you that I have just given it another pass from where you said you had stopped last time. I am probably not the right person to be doing that though. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 09:27, 23 December 2009 (EST)

I don't see why not. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)

• Support, after going through and cleaning up the rest of the article (particularly commas before independent clauses), although I would like to see the first paragraph under "Do" expanded somewhat to explain how one might experience Hindu culture and history. (WT-en) LtPowers 11:10, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Great to see that consensus can be achieved and thank you to all for their work! LtPowers: Thank you for the concrete feedback. I think with that feedback we can work on because even a Star article can be improved. I assume we have an early christmas present. (WT-en) jan 11:23, 23 December 2009 (EST)

Promoted.--(WT-en) Burmesedays 12:05, 26 December 2009 (EST)

With all the sub-districts at guide status, and at long last some finished history and literature sections, I thought I would give the main article a go at a star nomination. As usual my pitiful written English are likely to shine through in places, spiced up with a few Danglicisms here and there, but overall I feel the prose should be just about adequate, any help on that front will of course be much appreciated.

Critique is more than welcome, and I realize the tour section might be a bit controversial but I stand by those two listings, with their academic credentials - I do not believe that any guidebook, or lone meandering, could fulfil the substance of those tours, but this is of course all open for discussion.

Anyway, fire away and I'll see what I can do about it. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 20:00, 26 November 2009 (EST)

A very good article and one I had read before this nomination. Stefan, I have started a bit of a proof-read, have made some minor grammatical and spelling corrections and will continue later. I guess English must be your 2nd language at best and I have to say your written English expression is quite excellent. The thought of even attempting to write at this level in any language other than my native tongue completely terrifies me! --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:32, 26 November 2009 (EST)<a

You will need I think to standardise currency codes and expression. So far I have found 6 different versions. The country article uses the format DKK 100 which slightly surprises me given WT aversion to official currency codes. I thought it would (and should) be just Kr, always expressed as Kr 100 and not 100 Kr. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 00:25, 27 November 2009 (EST)

I know, been putting it off for a while, but I'll get it done - if we settle for kr. I think it should be 100 kr., since that's the version used locally. And thanks a bunch for all that hard work on the grammar and spelling!

One question though, in the history section I had written not a bad place to found a city trying to convey 'establish', not 'find' as it was changed to, Is there anything wrong with using 'found'? --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 11:04, 27 November 2009 (EST)

Oh! My gaff and apologies. Found is OK in that context, although many readers would make the same error as me. I would use either "..establish..." or "...lay the foundations for...".

No problem with helping out with a bit of proofing. It will need doing again though with a hard copy. I was reading on screen which is a sure way to miss things. Also, have a loot at the S-Tog section where the "C however" bit of the 3rd sentence defeated me - not sure what you mean there. I like the style of this article a lot by the way. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 11:17, 27 November 2009 (EST)

Back to English lessons: User:(WT-en) Army of me: "I like it, however i don't understand the "whiskey belt" reference in the Northern sububs summary, also the last sentence in the Wonderful Copenhagen infobox is a bit unclear"

"Whiskey belt" dates back to the less wealthy version of Denmark in the 1970'ties, "Whiskey" - because the residents here can afford/prefer to drink Whiskey rather than Carlsbergs (beers) like the rest of the populace , and they are generally old enough to - and off a social class which - appreciate a fine glass of single malt. "Belt" - possibly Danglish, but used in the same sense as the rust belt, the bible belt etc.

HAH vs HAY, not sure why this is unclear, old Danny pronounces Copenhagen like this, not an uncommon mistake among English speakers, it's pronounced more like this lass does.

Suggestions on how to make all this more clear are welcome. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 04:36, 28 November 2009 (EST)

I think Hah vs Hay is a nice touch and a cute way to explain the point. I would leave it be. On the whiskey (if single malt is the go, you really ought to spell it whisky, the Scottish way) belt, I got the implication but it is a wee bit obscure I guess. You could emphasise the meaning. Something like "...the well-heeled whisky belt...". --(WT-en) Burmesedays 06:16, 28 November 2009 (EST)

The "Whiskey Belt" thing makes sense now with your explanation (the connection between whiskey and "well-heeled" people, that is) - perhaps that link is more obvious to Europeans; I'm an American and it was a non sequitur to me (as a side-note, I'm reading your article as someone totally unfamiliar with Copenhagen or Denmark, although perhaps someone interested in their first visit ;).

As for the "Wonderful Copenhagen" infobox thing, I apologize as my statement was totally ambiguous. I like the bit about the HAY vs HAH (it was actually educational for me); the "unclear" aspect is earlier in that sentence: "Sung by Danny Kaye it's somewhat of an evergreen, and not accustomed to Hollywood attention the city has stuck to it ever since...". I probably shouldn't have said "unclear"; for me, the issue is more of a grammatical or structural nature - it could perhaps use a bit of fine-tuning (not that I'm an expert on such things); the sentence overall just seems a bit unwieldy to me. I will try to be more precise with my words in the future. :) (WT-en) Army of me 02:51, 29 November 2009 (EST)

Oh, and it's a Support from me, by the way. I thought the article was very well written overall (those very minor quibbles I mentioned aside). (WT-en) Army of me 18:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)

What is the deal with Christiania? It's not in the district list, but it is an established article (and is listed under Copenhagen, but the name isn't Copenhagen/Christiania?). Should it be incorporated in another district or become a district of it's own? And also, it's still at usable status, which means it should be bumped up to guide if Copenhagen wants to be a star article. (WT-en) Globe-trotter 11:03, 30 November 2009 (EST)

Very good spot GT. The structure is a bit awry in regard to this as Christiania is actually listed as an attraction in Copenhagen/Christianshavn. I would suggest that it needs to be a sub-district of Copenhagen/Christianshavn rather than linked from the top level Copenhagen article. Would that make sense? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 05:23, 1 December 2009 (EST)

It's an unusual situation, for an unusual place - It's not really a district in line with the others, and it's not really merely an attraction either. I'm still contemplating on the best way of dealing with it, it just felt a bit weird not wikilinking it, since it has it's own article, and is the 2nd biggest tourist attraction in the city. I think I'll just de-link it from the lead article, until I figure out how to finish the damn thing. I've directed the breadcrumbs to Christianshavn instead, which I believe is the most appropriate. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 21:26, 1 December 2009 (EST)

I'll get to the full critique soon enough, but I do think Christiania should be treated as a district, with the appropriate Copenhagen/Christiania title. I recognize it's the "freetown," but from a travel perspective we can and should treat it as part of the city that surrounds it (we even do this for a separate nation, Rome/Vatican). It should be elevated to guide status before we star Copenhagen. (I'm surprised I didn't notice this in advance!)

I'm inclined to hope for a quick elevation, so that we don't disrupt the starnom process for Copenhagen. If you need help figuring out how to handle the article, lets discuss at Talk:Christiania / Talk:Copenhagen/Christiania. I have at least a bit of knowledge of this weird little place ;) --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 21:49, 1 December 2009 (EST)

Well, it's not so much the "freetown" status, as my mental map of the city in the way here. To me it would look weird to have Christiania listed as a district in line with the others. Christiania is on Christianshavn, and is a great part of it's soul. I also remember considering merging those two, but I don't think that would work well either. So actually I'm pretty happy with the way it is.

I don't object to the notion that it should be guide status first, though, I have a really hard time getting my head around how to get it up there. --(WT-en) Stefan (sertmann) ^talk 13:05, 2 December 2009 (EST)

I put in a link under Christianshavn's description—the color coded district list doesn't have to be a literal list of each district—neither Chicago#Districts nor Washington, D.C.#Districts is. I've put up a few suggestions as to how to improve the article at Talk:Copenhagen/Christiania. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 14:24, 2 December 2009 (EST)

I am not really getting this as the logic of the article is surely that Christiania a district of Copenhagen/Christianshavn? In the same way that Greenwich Village is a district of Manhattan which is a region of New York City? Copenhagen-->Chrisianhavn-->Christiania = New York City-->Manhattan-->Greenwich Village (as an example). Or am I missing something? --(WT-en) Burmesedays 08:30, 3 December 2009 (EST)

Yes, but we try to avoid three-level hierar