Is there a page on how to use this site on mobile devices (Android, Blackberry, etc. )? Struggling to use the listing entries to call numbers directly.--Traveler100 (talk) 07:15, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

See also: http://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/Wikivoyage:Offline_reader_Expedition Nicolas1981 (talk) 06:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, if you're talking about editing the pages through official Wikivoyage website, I don't think so there is a way yet. --Saqib (talk) 10:28, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

In terms of making it mobile friendly so that you can tap on phone numbers and it calls the phone number, that functionality is not yet available. More features are on the way, along with apps I believe, but good things take time. :) It may be worth starting a brainstorm on features we would like to see. JamesA ^>talk 10:39, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes my question was related to making calls from listing, for example restaurants. The only way I have found so far is a rather long winded copy/paste process between browser and phone apps. Is there a page in existing to discuss or propose enhancements such as one click phone calls?--Traveler100 (talk) 11:08, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Not yet—I think it's time to create one.

There is an app called WikiSherpa which allows you to download content from WT (the author intends to switch over to WV content, hopefully soon) that does allow one clock phone calls. --Peter ^Talk 17:06, 5 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Having a more functional mobile site would be great and a few ideas have been brought up over the last 6 months or so during the transition. I mentioned a few things at Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Links to Wikipedia#Different subject. That page is long (but mostly thought-out discussion), but if you scroll down in that section to a big block of text (that isn't indented) starting with "Footnotes might be a good idea...", I discussed adjusting the listing template to create images (phone, map, website, etc) that, when clicked on a mobile device, would work with your phone's OS to bring up phone, email, a map (default map on phone or OSM), and open links to websites in a new window. I don't feel like editing/re-writing this, so FYI, the context of this comment was allowing in-line links to Wikipedia (as opposed to links in the sidebar) and whether/how such links should be differentiated from a Wikivoyage link.

But my preferred method is part of changes to some of the templates we use, where listing templates would add the option to link to a Wikipedia page. This would mainly apply to the see/do sections. I think the templates for see/do/eat/sleep could get a makeover to make them look sleeker (if all the info is present, this could be a couple lines of text on a computer, much worse on a smartphone) by using images and hiding some of the information from being displayed. Let me give an example before explaining. For Westminster Abbey, the listing on WT Westminster begins ([6]=website):

• Westminster Abbey, (tube: Westminster), ☎ +44 20 7654 4900 ([email protected] [email envelope], fax: +44 20 7654 4894), [6]

My idea would be for a listing that would look like this:

• Westminster Abby ([tube] Westminster, [Bus] ?, [Wikipedia], [Website], [phone], [email envelope], address [Open Street Maps])

In this format, the brackets would all be small images: Tube logo, a bus symbol, Wikipedia's "W" logo, some sort of symbol that would be used for official websites(replacing the [1] arrow only in templated listings, not elsewhere in article), the (existing) phone symbol, the e-mail envelope, & OpenStreetMap logo. The only text that would show is the mass transit stop & address. When you click the phone or email images the phone #/email address would be displayed to the right of the image. The info would also be displayed by hovering the mouse over the image (on computers). It would be really great for our site's functionality if clicking on those images when using a device like a smartphone (either through the "mobile" site or an official app) would bring up a small overlaying window with the phone number (or email) and ask "Call [ph. #]?" or "Email [email address]". The Wikipedia logo would serve as a link to the corresponding WP page...opening in a new tab on a computer. On a smartphone/tablet, this would bring up a prompt (Visit [name] on Wikipedia? "Go" "Cancel") just in case it is pressed accidentally (due to charges/limits for data service on mobile networks...especially when roaming [internationally]!) and then bring it up in a new window. There would be different mass transit icons for bus, (light) rail, & metro/subway. In some locations, the icons would be changed to reflect those of the official mass transit lines...like for Westminster Abbey, in London, the Tube...but ONLY if those images are not protected by copyright or otherwise permitted to be used freely (I think this was done with some of the routebox navigation). The bracketed number followed by an arrow is rather dull and, for those who might not be used to wikis, not intuitive that this means a website. So, a new website icon could be created for use in listing templates (it wouldn't be used elsewhere on the page). Clicking this would open the website in a new window (smartphone/tablet users might be prompted "Visit [website url]?" "Go" "Cancel"...again, to prevent accidental clicks). Finally the address could be displayed a combination of description ("Corner of 1st Avenue and Main Street"), physical address (which could be hidden by an image [1234] or by "Address" and displayed by clicking or hovering over it), and coordinates (hidden under a logo...maybe use same as WP...and displayed when clicking/hovering on it, see WP WikiProject Geographical Coordinates for ideas on incorporating into WV). The address/coordinates can be used to link to a mapping service/website via an image/logo (OpenStreetMaps may be best, because of licensing, when compared to commercial services) on smartphones/tablets, clicking on the image would prompt the choice of service ("OpenStreetMaps" + what the device uses...handled on the phone OS side, like if you have two programs doing the same thing on an Android device, you click an address and a window pops up for you to choose which to use...this wouldn't be for WV to know/link to other services). If a part of information is not provided in the listing, then the icon is not displayed (eg. no phone #, no phone icon shown).

To put this in perspective, the current WT attractions listing template is:

• <see name="" alt="" address="" directions="" phone="" email="" fax="" url="" hours="" price=""></see>

A new template might look like this:

• * <see name="" alt="" bus="" metro="" lightrail="" Wikipedia="" url="" phone="" email="" address="" directions="" coordinates="" hours="" price=""></see>

For offline electronic use (which is a topic that needs to be brought up elsewhere), the information would be fully displayed except websites which can get messy when longer than http://website.com (could be "Link" underlined). Wikibooks & Wikisource allows pages to be downloaded as a PDF (to view on computer/tablet/phone or loaded on e-reader), which is something WV should get when we move to WMF, in which case websites would need to be displayed in case printed or needed to enter in an internet cafe. We could also see if WV could get an official phone/tablet app some developer could volunteer to create that could keep the same formatting as the online website, but allow downloads for offline use.

Outside of templated listings, there's only a couple other common places where inter-wiki links would be used/appropriate. Since regional/country-level pages don't use listing, but rather paragraphs of text, WP pages could be linked by adding a template after the name of an attraction/etc. So in the middle of a paragraph you would see "Westminster Abbey [W]" (where W is the Wikipedia "W" logo) which would be done by typing "Westminster Abbey {{Wikipedia:Westminster Abbey}}" a template that could be added to the toolbox you see when editing. Links to other WMF wikis could be done similarly. AHeneen 00:35, 10 September 2012 (UTC)Reply

In addition to that suggestion, I would also like to see a template for just phone numbers to add in the middle of prose. For example, in the "Get around#By bus" section of Lake Wales: "Lake Wales is served by Winter Haven Area Transit (WHAT, [4], +1 863-534-5500). Adult/youth fare is $1.50/ride with no free transfers. Seniors (65+) and the disabled ride for $0.75, with proof and no free transfers." The phone number would look better with the phone image beside it and the template could work (on the mobile site) to bring up the phone app (is that what it's called?) to place calls. If you're using an Android phone, tapping a number will bring it up in the phone app. But it doesn't recognize the number in the format we use on WV. Tapping the number in that example text, it brings up "+1863534". To be honest, though, that functionality frequently brings up odd numbers in the phone app...for example, I'll unintentionally touch a number when scrolling and it will bring up "20-13" or "27395" (like a population). Not sure if that's been fixed in later versions like 4.x, but with the wide variety of phone operating systems and considering much of the developing world will have older OS versions, relying on the phone to recognize the number is not the way to go. AHeneen (talk) 06:13, 7 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Could we perhaps start work on an open source app, possibly very similar to the Wikipedia app? Having a good mobile site is important, but I feel like allowing people to browse the site (or a section of the site) while offline would make Wikivoyage much more appealing to mobile users. WikiSherpa is doing a good job right now, but it's proprietary software (it's freemium, and not open source), which feels at odds with the WMF philosophy if we want to call it our official app.

I've got some iOS development experience. I'd love to Plunge Forward and fork the Wikipedia iOS project on github and start working on an equivalent for WikiVoyage (which would be open source). However, I want to make sure I don't end up putting in effort for nothing. How does WMF go about embracing "official" apps for their websites? KhwamRock (talk) 02:57, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Check this thread. It might be a good starting point. --Alexander (talk) 07:36, 23 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi there. Jon Evans here, author of WikiSherpa, which I've recently switched from Wikitravel to Wikivoyage (as of the currently available Android version and the waiting-for-review iOS version.) I'd actually be happy to open-source it. There are, however, two points. One is that, well, WS was my first Android project and my first iOS project, and it shows in the code to an embarrassing degree. It's a lot kludgier and clunkier than I'd like. The other is that it doesn't just connect to Wikivoyage; it actually has its own App Engine server, which parses out Wikivoyage's data, geocodes addresses, gets associated Wikipedia pages, some Foursquare locations, etc, parses all that into a a somewhat byzantine XML format, and sends that to the apps. The App Engine server costs me a couple of hundred dollars a year to maintain, and I don't know if any open-source community is going to be willing to take that over... Anyway, I can be reached at [email protected] for further discussion.

Hallo, Jon! Thanks for taking the time to keep us up to date on your interesting developments. Please take the time to register an account so we know it's you posting in future. That way, if you configure your preferences appropriately, you'll also get an e-mail notification when pages you are "watching" are changed...-- Alice^✉ 04:23, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

I've updated my listing parser with a bunch of heuristics, so that it now also eats unformatted listing entries and converts them into proper tags, which only have to be inserted back into the edit window. If you're editing and cleaning up a lot of listings, you might find that quite useful. Please let me know, what you think about it! ML31415 Mail Talk 06:31, 15 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Nice work, Michael!

One thing you might like to consider, Michael, is a switch for the English language Wikivoyage which forces the insertion of null tags like tollfree="" (in line with the recommendation here: "...If you don't know some information, just leave that field empty, somebody else can add those details later. Please do not delete any unused listing fields..." ). Thanks for listening. -- Alice^✉ 07:11, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

It's generally inserting all tags now. ML31415 Mail Talk 01:20, 19 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hey everyone. Could someone add sharing options (such as emailing and sharing to Facebook, Twitter, etc) to each travel page so people could easily email their travel info to themselves and other people? Sharing functions aren't really needed on Wikipedia, but are probably more important for a travel site, and most websites nowadays have some basic sharing options such as AddThis and etc. It would be great if we could have some sharing options here on Wikivoyage, and I hope the community will be able to introduce this feature in the future. Thanks. —The preceding comment was added by 38.106.172.254 (talk • contribs)

We've talked about it but haven't had time to take any action on it. It's a bit low-priority at the moment. LtPowers (talk) 15:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Similar proposals has been discussed at Wikipedia and generally rejected on the basis of privacy concerns and on the basis of the horrible politics that would arise in choosing which sites one would put on the list of sites to share to. (Not that Wikivoyage should blindly follow Wikipedia, but it's worth contemplating the reasons why we've rejected it over on 'pedia.) —Tom Morris (talk) 16:16, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

There has been some discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Listings about changes to business listings. That page is quite long, so you'll have to scan through all that to find the suggestions (sorry, I don't have time to do that). In addition to the "what sites to choose" issue, there's also the problem of fees and liscenses associated with incorporating those sites' features onto Wikivoyage. AHeneen (talk) 19:26, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I added some Wikipedia links to an article earlier, and LtPower has removed them. I haven't got a problem with that: I'm learning the ways of the Wikivoyage.

But I've got a suggestion. Over on Wikinews, we have a template called 'w' which lets you easily link to pages, and if there is a page on the local wiki, it resolves there, and if not, it links to Wikipedia. What's the general view on linking to Wikipedia? I've started adding links back from Wikipedia to Wikivoyage using sister projects templates. —Tom Morris (talk) 16:52, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The discussion so far: Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Listings tags and links to Wikipedia. You may want to scroll down to the Summary section first though. --Traveler100 (talk) 17:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes. There has been a LOT of discussion about this and opinion seems divided. There are actually several sections on that page which discuss Wikipedia links. AHeneen (talk) 19:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Please see Wikivoyage:Links to Wikipedia. For the time being, the accepted way of linking back is to add a [[Wikipedia:Article title]] link at the bottom of the page, which will generate a sidebar link. --Peter ^Talk 19:55, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

As far as I know, the inline link style that you mention for Wikinews would likely not be OK on Wikipedia itself. WP groups interwiki links within WMF with the "external links" because there are many sites which have a mirror copy of the English-language Wikipedia but don't have Wikinews, Wikivoyage or any of the others. We don't have an "external links" section, so we use the sidebar link for now. K7L (talk) 00:38, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I also today had two links to Wikipedia from the Pakistan article hastily removed by this power lieutenant citing that inline Wikipedia links are against the rules and that's that. I say hasty because he had time to remove them but no time to improve the Pakistan article in a way he saw correct, or to join the Wikivoyage IRC channel to explain the reasoning when I invited him to join the discussion I began after the revert. ... Anyway ... my links were to terms casually dropped in the Pakistan article that I thought many people wouldn't know. One, "shalwar kameez", I did know the meaning of. The other, NOC / No Objection Certificate, I had never heard of before. I am at a complete loss why there's a rule against informative links to our well-known sister project. These links were not SPAM or any kind of clutter, just help on unusual terms. I understand there are many kinds of links to avoid. I understand that before coming to Wikimedia there might've been some reasons to discourage more links from Wikivoyage to WIkipedia. I cannot understand a blanket rule which had a clearly adverse affect in this case. I found this bureaucracy very discouraging and had to wonder if Wikivoyage is already chasing away well intentioned new contributors in the ways that Wikipedia has become sadly famous for. — Hippietrail (talk) 05:54, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. The reasoning and argument for what you externally link to and what not to externally link to has probably been discussed here more than any other single issue. Opinion is divided. You can join in the discussion, and address the argument specifically, and please convince everyone why we should change. You shouldn't have a go at one of our other contributors for making edits in line with policy. If you can't find the discussions, I'll provide pointers to them.

However, addressing your specific case, if you are using a term in an article that is unfamiliar to most, then you should make an effort to explain it inline in the article. We want our articles to be useful offline. Useful on the road, in a book, in a printout, in an phone offline. So it is no use to have the answer to the question in a link to WP, the info needs to be here. --Inas (talk) 10:15, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

To start with, I am strongly in favor of allowing in-line Wikipedia links. That said, current policy is that only a sidebar link to the WP page of the same (destination) or similar (topic/itinerary) name is allowed. The biggest reason for this is so that we get content added here and not 100 links to Wikipedia, forcing WV users to have to visit multiple pages to get the info they need. One reason we need content here is so that WV guides can be used offline (printed as a book or saved as a PDF/e-reader file for computers/tablets/e-readers/smartphones).

There has been a lot of discussion at Wikivoyage_talk:Listings#Listings_tags_and_links_to_Wikipedia. We do not have a formal voting process, instead relying on consensus. However an informal vote was made at the bottom of that section and it's 11-8 in favor of adding WP links. If there's no clear consensus, then we keep the status quo. Please voice your opinion there. Finally, I don't think many WV admins/bureaucrats use IRC and it's best to use user/guide talk pages to discuss issues. AHeneen (talk) 14:07, 25 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

The edit interface says, "By clicking the "Save page" button, you agree to the Terms of use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 License and the GFDL. You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license. "

Is that correct, or just an error in the MediaWiki: files? If it's an error, can someone fix it? If it's correct, can we update Wikivoyage:Copyleft? --EvanProdromou (talk) 17:42, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think we agreed it was useful in case content was migrated to WP for any reason,that new contributions were dual licenced in this way. It doesn't change underlying licence of WV. --Inas (talk) 18:45, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Where wast that discussed? I'd like to know more about this. --Rogerhc (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't think we can retroactively dual-license the migrated content, though, without a lot of work. --EvanProdromou (talk) 19:59, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's correct. I think what happened is that the default licensing text got left in there, and when someone wondered if we should remove it, it was reasoned that it did little harm. Now if there was text that asserted that everything was available under GFDL, that would be a problem, but I don't think there is. LtPowers (talk) 20:03, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think it should go. It may be necessary for WP, which started out with GFDL, but for us it is just an unnecessary complication.

I asked about this on the mailing list a few days back & someone said they'd check with the WMF legal dep't. Pashley (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The WMF's legal department is looking into it. I've asked one of our staff attorneys to weigh in. Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 22:03, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's safer to take it out for now and consider putting it back later, if that's what people really really want. Me, I'd rather just stick to the BY-SA. -- MarkJaroski (talk) 22:05, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hello, Philippe asked me to weigh in here. I agree that the GFDL should be removed from the edit interface, such as:

By clicking the "Save page" button, you agree to the Terms of use, and you irrevocably agree to release your contribution under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 License. You agree that a hyperlink or URL is sufficient attribution under the Creative Commons license.

Stephen LaPorte (WMF) (talk) 23:24, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I've made the change.  :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 00:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is actually fairly tricky to do consistently, for the following reasons:

1) There's more than one Wikivoyage language edition, and we'll need to consistently update all of them.

2) Users can set a different UI language, in which case they'll see the default text again (which includes the GFDL licensing grant).

To do this correctly and consistently requires a small amount of code and the translation of a new user interface message that has all the required legalese but lacks the GFDL licensing grant. Unless legal thinks the dual-licensing actually does harm, I'm going to consider that relatively low priority, but have filed a bug here: bugzilla:44023 --Eloquence (talk) 05:53, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Since this also applies to other languages, and needs to be done in a manner independent of the configured user interface language, I've filed a bug to consistently

FYI, this page needs to be updated accordingly: Wikivoyage:Why Wikivoyage isn't GFDL. AHeneen (talk) 04:55, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Is this possible, and if so, how? I read somewhere that you could do it by using HTML, but the page didn't tell me how to, only to flag them. Daylon124 (talk) 18:47, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

No, sadly, mostly for privacy reasons actually (If you load an image from an external site they would get the IP and user agent info of everyone who visits the page which would go against our privacy policy). The template you linked to is designed to 'link' to external media when necessary but doesn't actually load it (you can obviously do that here as well). You can see an example with the External Video on this article at the top of the section. Jamesofur (talk) 19:56, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

As it seems nobody else had done so yet, I have created a search plugin for this wiki. It uses https:// and &go and it can be found on mycroft. It should work fine on Firefox, Chrome and recent versions of Internet Explorer. Let me know if there are any issues :) Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 23:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Good work! —Tom Morris (talk) 15:42, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks! Now I have a way to search Wikipedia using https. =) LtPowers (talk) 19:27, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

HTTPS Everywhere works for Wikimedia projects too. Reedy submitted a patch to add Wikivoyage back in November. The next release should support Wikivoyage. I'd encourage all editors on all Wikimedia projects to use it especially if they are admins or bureaucrats (etc.) or use public wifi hotspots. It may be an idea for people to read the guidance pages on Wikipedia for User account security and Personal security practices. We may also want to have committed identities on Wikivoyage. —Tom Morris (talk) 16:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Tags like <br> don't usually convey information in the sense that <see> does here. I'm geninuely curious as to why <see> is being maintained when it seems more appropriate to use a template. (For the record, I've created an experimental template). --Member (talk) 02:26, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Custom code was used before. Users could click on an "add listing" link next to the "edit" link, and a pop-up would come up, in which they could fill in a name, address, pricing info, description, etc of a particular listing. Then they could press OK and the listing was added to the wiki. However, that function is not available anymore, and I think in the near future these will be converted to regular templates. See Wikivoyage talk:Listings for the discussion. Globe-trotter (talk) 02:42, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) There is a proposal for a template {{listing}} and a proposed patch bugzilla:43220 which would redirect mw:extension:listings output to a template. I believe these were originally tags as there used to be an "add a listing" button which used this; the German Wikivoyage has gone to a template vorlage:vCard but replacing these now would require a 'bot edit every page. K7L (talk) 02:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

A switch over to templates is probably necessary to be compatible with the visual editor that is under development at the Foundation. (I'll pester someone on the VisualEditor team to weigh in.) —Tom Morris (talk) 02:45, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

A move to templates is probably inevitable. Just need the right code, and the right timing. --Inas (talk) 03:12, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The VE doesn't require moving to templates, but it will probably mean you get to use it for these items sooner - see my comments on MediaWiki.org for a little more (as this is a general question not specific to Wikivoyage). Jdforrester (WMF) (talk) 20:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Also, although I was ignored previously when objecting to Wiktionary having an alcohol-related community page (though I no longer see it there now), could a community page here at Wikivoyage be named such that is not associated with a drug that costs billions of dollars a year in economic costs not to mention its more important psychological and moral costs? Community Forum or Traveler's Lounge or something which is actually inviting to all people as it is presumably meant to be--rather than putting off teetotalers who are put off by it, whether for the very common religious beliefs against it, or for purely practical reasons? Thank you. Brettz9 (talk) 06:05, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Please see this discussion on the talk page; specifically the latter comments. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 06:07, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm a bit of a teetotaller myself but I'm not offended. There is plenty to ingest at a pub that doesn't contain alcohol. LtPowers (talk) 19:35, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary still has and uses that page: wikt:Wiktionary:Beer parlour. –sumone10154^(talk) 22:37, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

If we were to change names I'd advocate 'Departure Lounge', but I'm perfectly happy with Travellers' Pub - I think it has a pleasingly rustic feel! --Nicholasjf21 (talk) 19:24, 2 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Quick question, but why are the contents boxes different here than on other WMF projects? It's kind of annoying not having numbers there, and furthermore, section titles frequently span several lines, so without numbers they appear to be different things. -mattbuck (Talk) 09:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Table of Contents (TOC) item numbers are cruft that we intentionally leave out. However, long section names do look a little odd in the resulting TOC. Some CSS formatting such as out-denting initial line could solve this. Our TOC has other issues (see #Coding error, above) that also might be solved with some expert CSS formatting. Thanks for pointing this out. --Rogerhc (talk) 19:32, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) We had a discussion about this somewhere recently, but I can't remember the page. The problem with the numbers is that they add to the width of the box, which is a factor because we wrap text around the box. When we had numbers, a lot of articles were ending up with small ribbons of text between TOC boxes on the left and lead images on the right. Also, on our content pages, section headings should rarely be long enough to wrap, so it's never been seen as a big problem. Some way to distinguish wrapped lines from individual headings in the TOC would likely be welcome; perhaps it can be done with CSS? LtPowers (talk) 19:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Congratulations on this new page. We do need more travel forums with travellers input. We also need more forums for travel partners search, especially for countries like Tibet- where there are restrictive policies for solo travel.

Please explain what you have in mind that can't be dealt with, for example, at Talk:Tibet. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:41, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Talk:Tibet is for discussions relevant to the Tibet article.

What are you proposing? I do not see any obvious need for forums here, but considerable danger of touting. Pashley (talk) 09:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi!

There is a lot of files showing up on Special:UncategorizedFiles. In most cases it is probably just a text page where the actual file is located on Commons.

I think that all relevant information should be copied to Commons and the local file page deleted. That will make it much easier to maintain the local files.

It would also be a good idea if some local users checked Special:ListFiles often and checked if everything is ok. If the file is free it should be copied to Commons. If there is no source and license then uploader should be told as soon as possible.

--MGA73 (talk) 18:18, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

special:newfiles and special:newpages might be more suitable than listing absolutely everything? K7L (talk) 02:43, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

ListFiles also have a description but feel free to use whatever tool or list you (or anyone else like) as long as someone checks new files I'm happy :-D --MGA73 (talk) 08:47, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Does Wikivoyage have any of the sister project link templates? Like the ones shown here I can't find any. 86.45.191.101 21:24, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We put our sister project links in the left-hand sidebar, using wikilink syntax (like [[Wikipedia:Kinsale]]). Thus, no need for boxes on the articles themselves. LtPowers (talk) 21:29, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Oh. Would the boxes not look better and easier to find for readers? And also help with cross wiki consistency, as the other wikis have similar boxes (although the ones on Wikibooks do look different). 86.45.191.101 21:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Both would work - the boxes you expect at the bottom, but the links are going to be near the top. -mattbuck (Talk) 21:42, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Also might be a good idea to check if the other projects have templates for Wikivoyage. Wikipedia has but I don't know about the others. 86.45.191.101 21:49, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Earlier I suggested on Wikinews that we ought to add Wikivoyage links. —Tom Morris (talk) 21:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Even in Wikipedia itself, many languages still need to be changed to use Wikivoyage templates and links. #Links from Wikipedia in other languages. K7L (talk) 22:02, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wikisource links to Wikivoyage through its headers (it doesn't use the Wikipedia-style templates either). Currently all of the country-specific portals should contain links (eg. Australia, Mexico, etc.). I've left some ideas on Wikivoyage talk:Sister project links about some circumstances where links from Wikivoyage to Wikisource might be appropriate but there is currently no support for them. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 17:43, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Good news: Wikinews now supports links to Wikivoyage from category pages, and I've started adding a few. See n:Category:London and n:Category:Manchester for instance. Do feel free to pop over and start adding them, although they won't appear immediately because we use pending changes. Is there any chance we could get reciprocation for Wikinews links, just like there are sidebar links for Wikipedia and Commons? —Tom Morris (talk) 12:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Where would this link fit into the project? Individual news articles usually wouldn't be of use in a travel guide to a city, unless they provide background for a specific travel warning (for instance, the big red box listing Somalia as a war zone). If you have a page describing the city itself, that might fit (much like a commons: category with pictures of a city is included now). The list of which links go into RelatedSites is in a configuration file on the server (like LocalSettings.php in the default MediaWiki install) so adding a prefix to the sidebar would require asking through bugzilla: that the system administrator edit the config files. Even with some sort of consensus, our local admins and bureaucrats don't have control of the servers to do this. K7L (talk) 18:57, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I absolutely think we should have sidebar links back to Wikinews categories—being able to click through to news on any particular destination you are considering visiting would be really cool! --Peter ^Talk 20:47, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

• Peter, I'm delighted to see you keen to try and make use of Wikinews, the discussion Tom mentioned is one you're most-welcome to give input on.

But, Wikinews is still a fairly small project. So soon after Wikivoyage joining the WMF family, it may not be all-that-obvious how we can help Wikivoyage with cross-project links. I do not know enough about Wikivoyage to know how you handle things like "travel warnings" issued by governments, and so on, but the most-logical place for those is as news articles. I know we can't ask Wikivoyagers (is this the correct term?) to dive into Wikinews and write the articles for such, but we'd certainly do the best we could to help get people on the right track were they interested in doing that. Equally, you have a wide range of news events that might raise interest in travel to some places (a new stable government and cessation of hostilities, major drop in crime, etc). I think the argument in the linked-to Wikinews discussion regarding Wikivoyage's lack of NPOV is irrelevant.

Looks like (at a guess) some of the attempts to link over here are 'a bit broken', but from my own contributions to Wikinews, our category on Southern Thailand's insurgency problems is one Wikivoyage would want to link to, and one where we would want to link to Wikivoyage. We'd want people to be able to reassure themselves the rest of the country is perfectly safe, much as Wikivoyage would want to link to news from higher-risk areas and give their readers an opportunity to be far better-informed when choosing travel locations. --Brian McNeil (talk) 10:34, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We generally link to sister projects with interwiki links appearing in the sidebar, and that would be great to see on any pages that have a corresponding category on Wikinews. Realistically, that will require a bot.

I would be thrilled to see a way for us to put a "feed" of sorts on the Main Page. Wikinews could tag articles as being "travel warnings," or "travel news," and we could then feed that into a box showing the most recent items. This may require some feature development to make it work well, but we could do this manually at first. The work would at first be more on Wikinews' end, but I think it would be a great way to feature the work Wikinews does, while also adding some great content to our Main Page. --Peter ^Talk 18:50, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree this would be great to get our travel news from Wikinews. I'd be happy to contribute travel news now and then to the site, and have it appear here. I think this would be a much higher profile feature than the sidebar stuff, that with the current content may not be that relevant. --Inas (talk) 00:46, 18 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

Obviously places, but what else? Is there any formal policy in place for this?

• If a town holds a regular festival or similar event, can we write an article on that festival specifically?

• If there's a particular castle / theme park, can we write an article on that attraction specifically?

• If a term, like "funicular" is uncommon, but important for explaining the joys of a particular town, how do we link to an explanation for those unfamiliar to it? Wikipedia probably has a suitable page, but AIUI, inline off-wikivoyage links aren't permitted in such a case. Should we create a precis page for funicular here?

Andy Dingley (talk) 23:17, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Attractions are usually included in the geographical article - i.e. where you would go to visit them. This includes festivals, theme parks, castles, etc. We don't usually link to nouns. It may be that in some cases for particular modes of transport a travel topic is in order. In the case of funiculars, I don't think we want a definitional page, but some people do enjoy seeking out and riding them - so perhaps a travel topic to that effect may work. --Inas (talk) 23:23, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

[edit-conflict]The page to look at is Wikivoyage:What is an article?. The mainspace is used for everything except (most) project-related pages. We don't write articles about specific destinations, except when they are particularly large like Walt Disney World (which actually meets the "Can you sleep there?" test). Only a few festivals/events have earned their own article, like the Olympics, in which case they were written as a travel topic. This would be a good idea, though, but we'd need to create a policy first. A term can be explained in prose in the appropriate section. Right now we don't allow in-line links to Wikipedia, but if you look at Wikivoyage talk:Listings there is a LOT of discussion about this and opinion is equally divided. AHeneen (talk) 23:28, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

(That discussion is about icon links to wp in listings, not in-line wp links.) --Peter ^Talk 23:31, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi. I thought about contributing to the site before really looking at it and I had the idea of starting something like "George Orwell's Barcelona", which would basically be an itinerary for a walking tour of the city going past key locations in Orwell's book Homage to Catalonia, with context info and photos. Looking at the policies, though, I'm not sure if this is a type of article that would be OK. Would it? FormerIP (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Not only do I think it would be okay per our policies, I'd actually be eager to read it (I'm an Orwell fan). Plunge forward. If other editors have a problem with the article, they'll make it known and you can hammer out a consensus as to its future direction. But speaking from my own experiences, I doubt very much that will be the case. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that sounds fantastic! Some good itineraries you might want to look to as models include Yaowarat and Phahurat Tour, Loop Art Tour, and The Wire Tour—if you've already watched the show, that is. --Peter ^Talk 01:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We have a stub Literary travel where you might add a link, and articles like Literary London and Marco Polo which might serve as examples as well. Pashley (talk) 01:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Reading Wikivoyage:Itineraries before, I was also inclined to believe such an itinerary isn't allowed. We need to change the wording of it. Globe-trotter (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

What in the article gives you that impression? I mean, The Wire Tour is the most prominent example there, and it's a tour of filming locations. --Peter ^Talk 02:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Some old discussion: Wikivoyage talk:Other ways of seeing travel#City Theme Pages Pashley (talk) 02:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The usual pitfall with local itinerary is to write A day in Dullsville in such a way as to merely create a duplicate of the main Dullsville article, listing all of the same attractions. Certainly, an itinerary can give more flexibility as a means for a journey to follow a theme (we have many itineraries like Across Canada by rail / Across the US by rail, as well as themes retracing US Route 66 or the Titanic maiden voyage). These can work well if there are clear criteria for what is included and some sort of natural sequence to the trip, instead of merely repeating what's in the city article. If w:The Grapes of Wrath were an itinerary, for instance, it would start in Oklahoma and head westward to California with brief stops in every town mentioned in the book. K7L (talk) 02:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the responses. I will start on a userpage draft soon-ish. FormerIP (talk) 13:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The city I live in has a Hookah Bar, which I understand to not be a terribly common thing. Is including that within the Food section within the scope of the project? It is the only Hookah Bar in town. Zellfaze (talk) 04:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Bars and nightlife usually go into "drink", as the "eat" section is for food and restaurants. K7L (talk) 04:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't know the answer to that (it is not listed at wtsi). Do they serve any food/alcohol? We stick bars and comedy clubs in the "Drink" section and if the hookah bar serves any alcohol, that would be the place for it. I don't think a "smoke" section with one listing would be necessary. AHeneen (talk) 04:09, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Even if they don't serve alcohol, they should go in Drink. It's a problematic heading, but it covers "non-eatery places where you go hang out and talk while paying the owner." --Peter ^Talk 05:04, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I was wondering this myself, actually. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

They serve both food and drink. Most people come, smoke a bowl or two, eat some food, have a drink and leave. I love their hummus and pita bread. They have alright Pizza too. Thursdays are 50 cent beer night. I'll go ahead and add it to the Drinks section. If later on it becomes an issue, I'm sure that it will be taken care of (Plunging Forward/Being Bold and all that). Zellfaze (talk) 23:31, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Turns out that Hookah Bar is within scope and listed on Wikivoyage:Where_you_can_stick_it#H. Fantastic. Thank you for your help guys. Zellfaze (talk) 00:24, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

IMO, the "Drink" section should be renamed "Nightlife" to take focus off alcohol. /Yvwv (talk) 03:33, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's also for daytime coffeehouses and cafés. Globe-trotter (talk) 05:18, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I agree entirely. Drink is such a limiting name. - Cardboardbird (talk) 05:21, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

"Drink" was used to match the pattern of using short imperatives as section names (see, do, buy, eat, sleep). It looks even more awkward on fr: where it was translated as "Sortir/Boire une verre" ("Go out/Drink a glass"). I've also noticed that in the smallest villages "Eat/Drink" should be a single section as the only places selling drink also sell food ("licenced restaurant", "bar and grill", "English pub" and the like). Then there's the Starbucks-like cafés which don't serve full meals. Drink? K7L (talk) 06:11, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We do sometimes combine the two sections—here's a star that does. I think the various stuff we put in there does go together. I'll hang out and chat/socialize after dining out at a bar, a club, a lounge, a cigar bar, a hookah bar, a coffeeshop, a teahouse, etc. They all serve that function. --Peter ^Talk 06:27, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps we can think about this section heading after the current Connect one. Meanwhile, I think Peter's description of what the Drink section means is about the best I've seen. --Inas (talk) 04:06, 20 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I can't seem to find any templates like commons:Template:User Wikipedia admin or Template:User alternative account name. Am I just looking in the wrong places, do they have yet to be created, or have they already been created and destroyed? Ks0stm ^(T•C•E) 11:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The extensive use of userboxes is not one of our traditions. We don't, as far as I remember, have a rule preventing their use, and provided they are used for usefully informative purposes, they may be acceptable. We do use a few, so there is precedent. I would suggest you create the ones you feel would be useful in a sandbox, and request comment. The two that you list above would have my support. • • • Peter (Southwood) ^(talk): 12:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The only ones I know of are Babel templates, and at some point they'll be replaced with the Babel extension. I wouldn't go starting a bunch of userspace templates; we have enough trouble keeping track of the templates we have. LtPowers (talk) 12:19, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I wouldn't mind seeing userboxes, but it would probably be best to discuss policy regarding their use and creating a page to keep track of them (without flooding Template index). There has been discussion split between those who want to see more templates and those who don't in the last few sections at Using Mediawiki templates (although it is about other templates, not userboxes, which are a bit different regarding use). AHeneen (talk) 14:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

User pages aren't mainspace articles and don't have to follow the fixed format (see/do, buy, eat/drink, sleep) of a city or region listing. One possiblility might be to create userboxes in subpages of your user space instead of in template: space (much like Wikipedia uses a placeholder w:user:UBX to store userbox template code in that user's subpage). WV has been restrictive on new template creation in the past, but that's to keep articles in a similar format across multiple cities and regions. Do we care about something entirely in userspace if it's doing no harm? K7L (talk) 22:28, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Userboxes have been abused on the English Wikipedia, to be frank; I don't think some of the frivolous ones should make their way over here ("Template:Userbox pizza", anyone?) Babel templates or the babel extension are pretty universal, and global users generally expect them, and the userrights ones might be helpful too. --Rschen7754 22:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Just about all the user boxes at w:User:UBX/Userboxes/Food are a bit ridiculous, like w:User:UBX/fishy, w:Template:User loser, [[:w:{User:UBX/jalapeño]], & w:User:UBX/McDonald's. However, I think some userboxes related to travel can be appropriate, like boxes for hometown ("This user is a native New Yorker."), nationality ("This user is a proud Canadian."), interests ("This user is interested in Japan."), and maybe a few reasonable fun ones. The category w:Wikipedia:Userboxes/Travel is full of great userboxes that would be relevant to this Wiki. AHeneen (talk) 23:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

w:user:UBX is intended to be a dumping ground for templates which aren't core to the Wikipedia project; as such, it will be missing some of the more useful items like individual Wikiproject (expedition) activity. "This user is helping Wikipedia get its kicks on Route 66" is a different beast from "I like cheese pizza". K7L (talk) 23:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

There is a good reason why userboxes aren't part of the tradition here—we cover fewer topics. While the fact that you like to play Shostakovich arranged for xylophone might actually have some relevance to your editing on Wikipedia, it clearly does not here. I'd really like to see us develop a small set of userboxes, above all one that lists where you are located (and then generate a list of Wikivoyagers by location through that) and one for docent designations. --Peter ^Talk 23:38, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I am not a huge fan of userboxes as they tend to get overused, but when used in moderation they do convey important information about the user clearly and easily.

Being in the process of returning to editing Wikivoyage again I have just set up my user page. There are two userboxes that I did missed while doing so: 1) a box to indicate that I have admin status. This is very useful information to wikivoyagers that visit one's userpage. This was easy to create under my userspace as template {{userbox}} does exist here. 2) {{User since}} to indicate how long one has been a contributor would have been nice to add, but this is a complex template and not easily duplicated under one's own userspace.

I think userboxes in the following categories will be beneficial: Babel (already there), User status on the wiki (admin/docent etc), User current location, User current disposition (working or traveling) --NJR ZA (talk) 13:44, 13 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I was thinking it could be helpful to have userboxes for familiarity with SVG/Inkscape (for maps) and photo editing/Gimp/Photoshop (might be handy if we move to the proposed new main page layout). -Shaundd (talk) 06:43, 14 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think it would be a good idea to create a tutorial for new users as WV can be a little confusing at first go's etc. —The preceding comment was added by ButlinsRedcoatJake (talk • contribs)

What you're looking for is Welcome and Tips for new contributors. Where you can stick it is also a useful page. AHeneen (talk) 17:11, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'd come here from WP in October 2012, made quite a few of the common n00b mistakes (such as an attempt to create w:Ontario Highway 401 and some unnecessary template imports from WP), then started listing what I'd "learned" at the existing page Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians in November so that all these differences between WP and WV would be documented somewhere. A travel guide is less free-form than an encyclopaedia as most entries are destination cities and regions, with basically the same sections appearing in every article (get in, see/do, buy, eat/drink, sleep, go next...) Are there any mistakes I'd forgot to make which really should be on the list? :) K7L (talk) 19:20, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We have had several mentions of a video tutorial, which would be great—if someone is willing to make one ;) --Peter ^Talk 20:54, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Going off on a tangent, I had tried to start an expedition to create guides to routes themselves, but (I was new & didn't understand the policies) I didn't start it properly with community consent in the Pub and in the end, consensus was that such pages won't be acceptable. You can view Wikivoyage:Routes Expedition (and its talk page) for more details. I started a sample/guide article to go with the proposal at (it got deleted on WV). It did spark the Routebox navigation concept, though. I still think such guides can be useful for long trips by road. AHeneen (talk) 22:50, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

~Hi Is there any place i can ask question as new user, and i joined from Wikipedia to Wikivoyage but it is not same for Wikitravel, can any one Please create or merge me with Wikitravel and is WikiTravel allowing Advertisement ? --Somesh.kanti (talk) 13:09, 6 February 2013 (UTC)Reply

I just discovered this website and it looks very promising. However, most of the topics I found in my quick survey seemed to be regarding the format of the site itself. Maybe I am missing the important pages. Is there going to be a forum for travelers on the go, some sort of on-line Lonely Planet? I'd be looking for hints for things to do, places to stay, and things to avoid advised by fellow travelers.

The mission of Wikivoyage is to create a free, complete, up-to-date and reliable worldwide travel guide, not a travel forum (See our Goals and non-goals). By on-line Lonely Planet are you referring to the Thorn Tree forum? Then no. However, just have a look at the guides themselves for advice on things to do & places to stay. After all, this is the travel guide that anyone can edit...users should Plunge forward and add interesting places and restaurants/accommodations to the destination pages for everyone to find...you don't need to search dozens of threads with useful info buried among several pages of posts. While travel forums are useful, they don't fall into the scope of Wikivoyage and actually detract from our goals (again, content being added in a thread rather than on proper destination page). AHeneen (talk) 17:39, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Most of the content is actually travel topics. Click Random page to get an idea of what you can find here. By the way, welcome to Wikivoyage! :-) Nicolas1981 (talk) 17:51, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Type the name of any country, province or city you please into the search box at top right of page. Tada! Or if you prefer to browse by region, start with one of the little bulleted links at top of Main Page to find your way. Happy trails! --98.207.156.126 18:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I don't predict that we'll have a forum a la Thorntree, but new ways of sharing tips should definitely be in our future, about listings in particular. We had such an experiment in development back around 2007, but it failed for lack of tech support/development. This is still a bit over the horizon, but it almost certainly will become possible. --Peter ^Talk 20:57, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

When using the listing templates (for restaurants, attractions etc) there's an error with links; they don't not appear the way they should (i.e as ) but instead as the listing name becomes a link. It's a small bug but a bit annoying. Would be great if somebody could have a look into it! --Jonte-- (talk) 17:46, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Link doesn't work. However, in listings, the name is supposed to become the link. Example:

• <see name="Legoland Florida" alt="" address="1 Legoland Way" directions="Located off Cypress Gardens Blv. just east of Winter Haven" phone="" email="" fax="" url="http://florida.legoland.com/" hours="Hours vary throughout year." price="$65 (Ages 13-59), $55 (Ages 3-12, 60+)">The second Legoland park in the US in addition to Legoland in California. yada...yada </see>

Is that what you're referring to? AHeneen (talk) 18:14, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Ah, a small typo in the link I provided. But it was the format that I wanted to point at. Since the introduction of listing templates the formatting have been:

• Legoland Florida 1 Legoland Way (Located off Cypress Gardens Blv. just east of Winter Haven) . Hours vary throughout year.. $65 (Ages 13-59), $55 (Ages 3-12, 60+). The second Legoland park in the US in addition to Legoland in California. yada...yada

See example on WT here: . This is in line on how all other links are displayed. --Jonte-- (talk) 18:26, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

That is a known bug, bugzilla:43220, for which a fix has been proposed but not yet deployed. That fix, once enabled, will give:

• Legoland Florida, 1 Legoland Way (Located off Cypress Gardens Blv. just east of Winter Haven). Hours vary throughout year. The second Legoland park in the US in addition to Legoland in California. yada...yada $65 (Ages 13-59), $55 (Ages 3-12, 60+). 

It might be a good idea to look at {{listing}} to verify it matches the desired format while it's still an unprotected experimental template which can be changed without affecting much of anything. I presume the globe icon for the URL should change to either the old '[1]' style external link or to an icon without any distracting colo(u)rs. K7L (talk) 20:47, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Discussion moved to Wikivoyage talk:Cooperating with Wikioverland

On Wikivoyage talk:Cooperating with Wikioverland many people support using interwiki links to WikiOverland.
Does anyone know how or where I can request WikiOverland be added to the list of related sites so interwiki links can be added in places that make sense (Country and "drive.." pages, I think)?
Thanks very much. -Dangrec (talk) 22:45, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Alexa traffic statistics show an immense spike in activity for Wikivoyage in the past four days, overtaking Wikitravel around Friday. While this can largely be put down to the promotional banner on Wikipedia, it's also good to see that WV has been ahead in amount users spend on the website for some time.

Just something I felt like sharing. --SU FC 12:14, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's probably worth waiting a week or so before we start drawing conclusions about traffic. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:18, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

One idea is to take a selection of popular articles and see how much they have changed between both sites. 86.45.191.101 22:21, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The average time spent on site actually declined markedly around the launch, maybe due to the changing mix of editors and readers. We're still a little higher than WT. --Avenue (talk) 22:58, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think that's to be expected with tons of people checking the site out for the first time, rather than it being more or less just dedicated users slaving away in preparation for the launch! --Peter ^Talk 23:07, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I see this template being used in a number of places and I think it looks damn ugly. Any chance it could be spruced up a little? I'm thinking, a nicer colored border, or no border. Slightly rounded corners, maybe slightly small font size to the rest of the text in the article. 86.45.191.101 19:46, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Could you add a mockup of your proposal to Template talk:Infobox so that people can see what the proposed changes would look like? We've done some recent UI cleanups to other templates, but I don't think anyone has (yet) proposed changes to the infobox. -- Ryan • (talk) • 20:03, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think a border is needed but could have rounded edges and maybe lighter color. Slightly smaller text maybe but not too much. How about this Template:Infobox/sandbox

I lightened the border and gave it a non-gray color. I think it looks better. 86.45.191.101 20:42, 19 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I like the idea of updating the infobox style. I added a slightly lighter version to consider. See Template_talk:Infobox#Style. --Rogerhc (talk) 02:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It seems to me that the import bot is putting words in people's mouths, and altering email addresses to the point where they won't work, here: I'm guessing this is a special case of a regex rule that works well in a lot of other situations. It seems ill advised to apply rules like this to user pages or talk pages, without careful review. Thoughts? -Pete F (talk) 03:26, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Heh, too late!

We just have to fix these things as we see them. I'll handle that page now. --Peter ^Talk 03:37, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Is it really too late? As I see it, this is a global problem where a bot got it horribly wrong, and it needs a bot to fix it. There are (at least) two ways that a bot could tell what needs reversion, any comment whose date tag shows it is older than the date we took our copy or any comment that exists on WT with identical wording except for WT/WV substitution.

Those substitutions should all be reverted and there are too many to do it without a bot. Pashley (talk) 21:01, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I disagree that the substitutions should all be reverted. We're the same project, just now with a different name, and all applicable versions with "Wikivoyage" should stay. I only think we should be reverting when things don't make sense, like mentions of Wikitravel Press, or the examples from Maj's userpage linked above. --Peter ^Talk 21:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It seems to me that a basic notion in wiki-etiquette is not to change talk page discussion text, other than reverting obvious vandalism and archiving parts of overly long pages. The WT->WV substitution should never have been made on talk pages. We cannot just do a global revert because now there is newer discussion, but all changes to imported text should be reverted.

To me, this seems so obvious that I am amazed it even requires discussion; the only question is how it should be done. Pashley (talk) 21:26, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Again, I'm in full agree with Pashley (there's been times I really want to indent an improperly-indented comment (this one doesn't count, since I'm primarily responding to Peter), but even that's seemed like crossing the Rubicon. Peter, your logic doesn't really work, since they aren't the same project. They start with the same data and policies and have many of the same users, but pre-fork Wikitravel was a very different climate, which is why I never joined up. The fact that many Wikimedians have joined up (and plenty of Wikitravelers haven't) also means that despite the status-quo bias in written policy, you can expect unwritten assumptions to be different as well. Wikietiquette aside, many if not most discussions don't make sense in Wikivoyage. —Quintucket (talk) 21:36, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

(Note, I wrote this in response to Pashley at the same time as Peter's edit, and won't try to adjust it at risk of another edit conflict.) I agree. If possible, I think that pre-fork userpage edits on non-merged account and pre-fork talk page edits Import-bot edits should all be reverted, as changing Wikitravel to Wikivoyage only makes sense in the context of post-fork Wikivoyage.

In that note: Peter reverted me here for restoring pre-fork references to Wikitravel, claiming it doesn't apply here since it's still the same project. I strongly disagree. These discussions took place in a pre-fork context, and the changes are confusing. I made the edit after reading the discussion about discouraging forks and the unhappy climate at Wikivoyage, a non-thriving project, and was thoroughly confused until I remember this discussion. Other readers likely will be too, reading these substitutions not only out of context, but with context actually obscured by a bot, "putting words in people's mouths" as Pete F put it.

That said, while I'd like Peter to agree to re-revert his own edit (I follow a principle of not making the same revert twice with two different users, unless said users are obvious vandals) we really need a bot to do this globally. However there are plenty of people at Wikimedia who would be able and willing to do this. —Quintucket (talk) 21:28, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

There are legal reasons for the replacement. --Peter ^Talk 21:43, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wherever there are legal reasons, they should be the exception, though, not the rule. In which situations are there no legal reasons for Wikitravel to have been substituted with Wikivoyage? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:46, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

There is ongoing litigation related to the use of the name Wikitravel in ways that could confuse readers into thinking that this site is endorsed or part of or whatever regarding Wikitravel. If this is something people want to take up (and I don't see any compelling reason to do so), please get in contact with WMF General Counsel. If you just have questions about this, please email me. For similar reasons, it is best for us not to discuss the ongoing litigation on wiki. --Peter ^Talk 21:50, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I will contact the WMF general counsel, but if they say that there's no issue, would you agree that refactoring user/talk pages is a bad idea in principle, and support efforts to fix the problem? —Quintucket (talk) 21:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Peter, I understand why we can't use the WT logo, nor refer to Wikitravel on policy pages (except the one about the fork), even if we wanted to, which we don't. But are there actual legal reasons for refactoring user comments, and if so, could you point me to the relevant discussion on MetaWiki? —Quintucket (talk) 21:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I assure you, there are, and would be happy to explain in greater detail by email. We should not, and I will not discuss this on-wiki. I'd be happy to explain why that is the case by email as well. --Peter ^Talk 21:55, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

As a general issue, separate from the legalities and specifics, I don't see a problem with minor refactoring of user comments, including fixing indentation levels. It's routine to do things like sweep discussions to more appropriate pages, move new comments on a talk page to the bottom of the page, and adjust the threading of comments made on a talk page. LtPowers (talk) 22:16, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is obviously a far less important facet of the issue than the foregoing, but for what it's worth: in many cases, the WT->WV substitution was also done in a rather artless manner. I've seen several cases where "Wikitraveller" (the non-US spelling, with two "L"'s) was converted to "Wikivoyageler". -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:19, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wait—are you saying we're not Wikivoyagelers? --Peter ^Talk 22:56, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

In the San Jose (California) article, if I click the edit button at Eat or any of its subsections, an edit window is opened for part or all of the Get in section. Is this a MediaWiki problem or something local? Peter Chastain (talk) 12:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I have dealt with this problem myself. Most likely, one of the listings in the "Eat" section doesn't have </eat> at the end of it. It screws up the formatting. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:37, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thank you! It was actually a missing </do> in an entry that I added (whoops!) Thanks also to the "IP address" user who fixed it for me. Peter Chastain (talk) 20:27, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Following a request on IRC, I did a query on Wikimedia's Toolserver and retrieved a list of pages that do not have images. I've plunged forward and put it up at Wikivoyage:Pages needing images. If you feel like doing some wikignome-type work, do feel free to find images from Commons and add them to the articles. —Tom Morris (talk) 14:22, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Some of these are redirects, such as Chatham (Ontario) → Chatham-Kent. I'd also think that category:pages with broken file links would be more important to fix than adding new images to travel topics like bargaining or renting motorcars in New Zealand. There's also a huge number of '''X''' is in [[region name]]. {{subst:smallcity}} outlines with no other content; I have no idea why we keep these but illustrating them really isn't top priority. K7L (talk) 15:16, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Still, K7L, it was a good impulse on Tom's part, don't you think? The other problem is that the list doesn't catch articles like Geneseo, where the only image is in the routebox. Still, false positives and negatives aside, it's a good starting point for wikignomes (though I agree that Category:Pages with broken file links should be a higher priority). LtPowers (talk) 15:20, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

True. On initially generating new lists, possible refinements to the criteria (such as including only destination articles, excluding redirects, or separating stubs and outlines from the main list) often become apparent. All part of the process. K7L (talk) 15:43, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, sadly doing that kind of thing is hard. If it was for 7,000 articles, I'd do it. But for 700, I figure throwing some humans at it should remove the ones that don't need any work. —Tom Morris (talk) 20:53, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Moving this discussion from Wikivoyage talk:Listings#Suggestion for price listing and currency conversion since it covers multiple topics like Currency, Listings, & Using Mediawiki templates. The issue of up-to-date exchange rates keeps coming up in several small discussions, so why not put this in the pub to discuss & take action, before moving to some talk page where it gets no attention?

I am not sure if I am putting this in the right place, I ve been trying to figure out where suggestions for the entire site should go but anyway, I thought about when people list prices of services or products in a country that they use the local currency and there could be a feature where the user could have the currency converted to their own currency, so they can better understand what the price of things are. If someone tells me a ride on a bus in kazakhstan costs 40 KZT or whatever example I saw, I would like to have some feature that could tell me how much that is in dollars or euros, etc. I think it would really help the traveler's expectations of costs.--Elektroid (talk) 02:30, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's an excellent suggestion that's been discussed a little bit, but it would require some development work. LtPowers (talk) 15:23, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

This is a good suggestion & I don't know if this is the right place or not (other good locations would be Wikivoyage talk:Currency & Wikivoyage talk:Using Mediawiki templates). There are a few ways to go about doing this:

1. Current practice is that exchange rates should be quoted in the "Buy" section of a country page. Most pages have an exchange rate quoted for 1-2 major currencies in the last couple of years. On Kazakhstan#Buy: "As of June 2012, the exchange rates are the following: US$ 1 = KZT 149.01 € 1 = KZT 188.30". This leaves the burden on a reader to find the current exchange rate themselves & do the math. Doing the math is ok for most travelers, but finding the current exchange rate shouldn't be.
2. Using a template for each time a currency is mentioned. For example, the sentence displayed as "Admission is €10." would be written as "Admission is {{10|EUR}}.". The template would allow a user to select currencies to convert in a dropdown box. While this can be useful, the downsides (IMO) outweigh the benefit. First is the difficulty of inserting the template. New users would find that adding a template each time a currency/value is mentioned overwhelming and this would be a huge burden on experienced editors to go around and clean up (even with a bot, this would be difficult to keep up with). Another reason is that it might be easy to remember/quote a price in local currency "10 cedi for a bus ride" (not 5.23 USD), "Park admission is 8 cedi" (not 4.19 USD), and so forth.
3. Creating a template for the "Buy" section of country pages which lists the exchange rates for major currencies. The rates would be updated by users. The box would simply have "Exchange Rates for [Name of currency]" at the top and then 5 or so lines below listing exchange rates for each currency & the day/month updated.
4. Creating a template which links to exchange rate websites. A modified version of w:Template:Exchange rate, using/displaying rates from openexchangerates.org instead of using links to commercial sites. The rates included could be limited to fewer currencies (like just USD, EUR, AUD, CAD, GBP) or more relevant currencies to a particular country (eg. neighboring countries). When pages are exported for print/book versions, this template would convert into a box of exchange rates accurate to the time of printing or PDF creation (either listing major currencies or adding an option to the print screen or when creating books to select which currency(-ies) to include conversions for.
5. Creating a template (or just modifying on of the previous two suggestions) which basically functions as a calculator. It would have a box to enter a unit, then the nation's currency named, then a dropdown list of currencies to convert to, then a results box that displays the conversion. So the template would look like: "Convert [box to enter unit] tenge (KZT) to [dropdown list of currencies]. [Result]"

My preference is to combine the last two ideas: Have a template box to insert in the "Buy" section of country pages (and other regions with their own currency, like Hong Kong, Isle of Man, etc) with a list of current exchange rates and at the bottom include a conversion calculator. I don't have the software language knowledge to create a template, so it would be awesome if someone could create such a template. AHeneen (talk) 19:11, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Also see Wikivoyage:Cooperating_with_Wikioverland#Currency_conversion. Wikioverland's currency dropdown converter is pretty cool. --Peter ^Talk 19:26, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, it's cool, but how could we use it for our texts, with prices listed on every second line? --Alexander (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Wikioverland has a template which includes a dropdown box. The dropdown box could be placed at the top of the page (or in MediaWiki:Sitenotice), and the prices could be given using templates with currency codes and amounts. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I would like to see possible solutions, but I am not sure that this currency converter is of high importance for our purposes. Once you are in the country, you have to pay in local currency, and you have to develop a quick conversion scheme, so it is better that you develop this scheme in advance when preparing the travel. It is also important to have some real prices in mind, so that you are not cheated or overcharged. Displaying everything in US$ may be a disservice to the traveller. --Alexander (talk) 19:47, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It would be great for country "costs" sections though. Using this to list gas prices along with a bundle of other basic goods (accommodation, price for fast food, street food, fancy restaurant, etc.) would be very helpful. --Peter ^Talk 20:01, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The price of petrol/gas/fuel is likely more volatile than the fuel itself. Good luck trying to keep that up to date, short of launching a site like gasbuddy.com K7L (talk) 21:56, 20 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We could try to grab the information automatically from other sources, or just datestamp the prices. --Peter ^Talk 01:43, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I think that this would be a great idea. Recently, I came across the article Freighter travel (overland travel without a car) and found that the currency rates are awfully outdated. For example, it says that 75-100 US dollars ${\displaystyle \approx }$ 100-120 euros, which might have been the case about 10 years ago, but today Europeans would feel scammed if they were to get that rate when travelling to the United States. These currency rates were already out of date by several years when the prices were first included in the article, so maybe someone didn't understand the difference between multiplication and division. --Stefan2 (talk) 00:14, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

A template that takes the local price and gives updated conversions seems feasible and a great help to the readers. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 01:30, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We need not have special extensions, merely a template that handles this (not impossible at all, might be worth contacting User:Varnent about this), displays the local price and has a tiny button (or maybe one can just click on the symbol/name of the local currency) and he can see the price in at least the couple of major standard currencies. The conversion rates would be updated manually or by a bot. It is feasible, it is worth doing, and it would be a great boost in usability to our users. Snowolf ^{How can I help?} 01:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Over at Wikivoyage talk:Cooperating with Wikioverland There is talk about how WV can co-operating with WikiOverland. Once of WO's features is a real-time currency converter for prices and units. See Wikivoyage:Cooperating with Wikioverland#Currency conversion for an example and explanation of how it works and how to use it. WikiOverlanders are happy to share the custom MediaWiki plugin. -Dangrec (talk) 22:58, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Might, I first add, I am not very savvy with all of wiki technologies and which plugins are available to do what. As my suggestion originally was to help make the site more manageable for the traveler using this site to plan a trip. I think I am in the school of thought with using the WO plugin as currency rates sometimes are quite volatile but in some countries currencies are very static as they are pegged to another currency for stability purposes. My original concern and reason for the suggestion is that I travel a lot and using guidebooks for price indications even within a year or two of being printed are already obsolete in the foreign currency where the local currency is still about the same for prices.

However, when one prepares for a trip at least in my sake until I m there and familiar with the local currency a few days of buying things, I convert to my home currency. So my main reason was to better prepare travelers on how to budget. I think once in the country at least speaking for myself I become accustom to local currency and know how much things cost no longer needing a guide. I find a guide is most valuable in planning before the trip and maybe the first few days afterwards, it isn't so much an issue during the entire trip. I guess I advocate the drop down box with 5-10 main currencies as in Eastern Europe the USD along with the local currency is used, from my experience living in Ukraine and visiting Russia, Romania, etc. USD is carried and often used for wage payments and when travelers of this country go abroad they often convert to USD in order to more easily convert to another currency where ever they may be headed. Also, like in Ukraine in Russia, they are just as aware of the value of the USD as their local currencies and often cars, flats for sale are quoted in USD. Anyway, I am sorry for my long rambling as I just woke up but anyway, 5-10 currencies available to convert the local currency somehow would work great, imho. And now I shall shut up :)--Elektroid (talk) 20:10, 26 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

That's exactly how I feel too. Especially when trying to plan a trip where you need to know the gasoline prices, reading that it's 1423 Quetzales per gallon doesn't mean anything. It's much more useful to convert it to your local currency and unit (i.e. 2.3 Euro per liter or whatever). In the planning stage, it's essential. -Dangrec (talk) 17:51, 29 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

HELP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I really really want to help here - I have lived in and loved Mexico for 44 years and this is the first time I have time for myself ( just retired ! ) - reporting on Mexico sounds like a very good way to give back all that She has given me.

BUT I am having problems understanding the simple instructions ( sorry ).

I started a page ( I think ) titled San Juan de Los Lagos, Mexico and would like to go back and fix the title to include the state it is in but when I looked for it it does not have the edit button. Many small towns in Mexico are enchanting - but are really only good for day trips from larger cities as they do not have hotels ( do we have the back up of a spell checker ? ) decent enough for American or European tourists. There arre always small local restaurants that serve very good homecooked local cusine - the markets are perfect examples - at rock bottom prices - "most" are perfectly safe and clean. but even when my family vists from the US the "girls" resist eating in a local setting and want a white tablecloth and decent cutlery.

The best of Mexico is found in the small towns and cities - the REAL Mexico. Let me introduce you to them.

Sheila in Mexico

Hi. The article title has been fixed for you. Just go to San Juan de los Lagos and edit away. The edit button at the top, or at the article headers is good to change the content. --Inas (talk) 03:39, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sheila, you did a great job starting that article, and I look forward to more content from you. Please do put in entries for restaurants and markets you like, and feel free to include hotels or hostals with simple accommodations, as this is a worldwide guide, and anyway, people from the US and Europe are not all looking for luxury accommodations. There's a bit of a learning curve in terms of how to best use Wiki language, templates, and the like, but don't worry to much about that; it's much more important for you to put the content up. I posted to your user talk page with a couple more specifics. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:46, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Hi, everyone. I have set my preferences so that if there are several recent edits of an article, it shows up on "Recent changes" as having, say 4 edits. However, I don't seem to be able to mark several edits at once as having been patrolled. Is anyone else having the same problem, and if so, I hope something can be done about it. Patrolling edits individually when there may be, say, 12 recent edits of an article is really untenable, as traffic increases here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:15, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

No one can do that, and it's really frustrating to say the least. I think this feature request was filed at Bugzilla somewhere, but I can't find where. Patrolling would be a lot easier if we got that feature back. Globe-trotter (talk) 04:54, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The English Wikipedia has the patrol system that you describe, so it is possible. I'm a bit annoyed by it too - that's how Wikidata is set up as well for some reason (the third project I'm a part of). --Rschen7754 05:00, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

If English Wikipedia has that setup, what's the issue in getting it here? We used to have that on Wikitravel, and it's desperately needed. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:07, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

It's a huge problem, and has crippled our ability to effectively patrol. Please see Bugzilla:43977, and vote for its importance, if you think this deserves more attention. --Peter ^Talk 09:09, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Actually, enwiki only does this for entirely new pages, so it's not exactly like that (sorry for the false alarm! trying to keep all these projects straight :/) But yes this would be quite useful. --Rschen7754 09:31, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Is there any way to hide my email address on Bugzilla? I'm not at all comfortable with having my email address be public. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:58, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Unfortunately not that I'm aware. I use a separate email for all my WMF accounts and mailing list subscriptions to guard against outing, and it's possible to change the email on your Bugzilla account. --Rschen7754 10:18, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

You can change the email address on https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=account and the email address is only shown to users that are logged in. Related bug report: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=148 - --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 21:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Having edited Wikitravel in the past, will our edit history be imported here?--Jusjih (talk) 10:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Were you also called "Jusjih" on Wikitravel? If so, then your Wikitravel edits are the ones shown at Special:Contributions/(WT-en) Jusjih. Edits up until early August have been imported. If you wish to have the contributions listed under your Wikivoyage account, then please follow the procedure at Wikivoyage:User account migration. --Stefan2 (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, just be sure to provide evidence that you are the same person, as explained on that page. --Peter ^Talk 21:17, 21 January 2013 (UTC)Reply