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What happens when you throw food scraps away outdoors
[edit]Have a look at this article: Once You Know What Happens to Food You Leave Outdoors, You’ll Stop Doing It: It’s better to toss scraps into a proper trash can. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
Ambiguity of "ecotourism"
[edit]The word ecotourism has two different meanings: first, it is any kind of tourism that reduces environmental impact; second, it is tourism to natural attractions, in particular well-preserved ecosystems. The article on sustainable travel describes the first kind, and avoids the word ecotourism. There is a bit of a difference; for instance, when Londoners take the Eurostar to Paris and get around by metro and bike, it is ecotourism in the first sense but not the second; a multi-leg flight to the Galapagos Islands could be ecotourism in the second sense but not the first. Is the word meaningful in this article? /Yvwv (talk) 12:17, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
- "Ecotourism" is such a common buzzword related to responsible travel that I think it must be mentioned, but the double-meaning should be clarified. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
FYI: Selfies taken in desirable locations makes people less likely to go there, study finds
[edit]Just another good reason to not use social media. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 10:08, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- This feels a little like the home-selling advice about hiding all the family photos. You don't want people to think this is your house. You want them to be able to imagine themselves in it. Perhaps a photo of "me at the beach" similarly keeps people from being able to imagine themselves in that location. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:06, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would like to read the study itself, or a real report on it. Most key info is missing from the NPR article. Was it an academic study or just a bit of asking around?
- If you are going to propose to somebody, you don't want to do that like a friend of yours, whose proposal they probably have heard or will hear about. That's quite obvious – and very different from your wondering where to go for your holiday and seeing an influencer posing in Shangri-la.
- –LPfi (talk) 09:00, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, the actual "study" (which the article frames around one woman asking her friends and family if they'd propose at the same spot in the same location as she did) definitely doesn't conclude that selfies or seeing people in photos makes people less likely to visit. If her friends had not seen the photos but just heard about her proposal, I don't think they'd be any more eager to "steal" her proposal. I think most people would not want to steal their friend's proposal.
- The article, and perhaps the study itself, doesn't acknowledge that selfies and pictures can be taken and seen by people you don't know or any of the obvious reasons someone might not "steal" a friend's trip other than the fact that their eyes saw a photo with a person in it. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- The study is at https://doi.org/10.1093/jcr/ucad059
- I think this thing about wanting a unique proposal is not universal. For some people/cultures, doing it like everyone else means doing it "correctly". If everyone else goes to a fancy restaurant, or overlooking a waterfall, or in Lover's Lane, or whatever, then you want to do that, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:00, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. Yes. I suppose the point here is that "everybody" in Western cultures does it in a "special" way, which means you cannot just copy what somebody else did. Doing it in Paris or in the yard of Juliet works, but only if somebody close didn't do so recently.
- (Most, of course, would not splurge on that journey, and then need to frame it more or less without such clichés – if they even want live up to the "special" expectation.)
- –LPfi (talk) 17:35, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- I can see this being the case, especially if certain social media sites like IG/TT are fueling overtourism in certain locations. At least that's often a deterrent for me. SHB2000 (t | c | m) 23:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- That makes me think that there will be differential effects. One person will feel deterred, and another might think "It looks like they had such a nice time, and they look like me/we seem to like similar things/I identify with them in some way, so maybe I'll go there someday, too". WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:07, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
FYI: Fodor’s No List 2025
[edit]https://www.fodors.com/news/news/fodors-no-list-2025 —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:05, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- It seems like we can do more to build up the section on overtourism and call out particular locations that are negatively impacted. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:08, 2 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's not just calling out destinations, but also travel practices that damage places and local economies. In the area of parks, too many parks are overdeveloped: should national parks really build more roads and camping areas with pull-through sites and hookups to accommodate huge RVs? Should we really keep mentioning Airbnb when cities around the world are considering regulations to ban (or at least curtail) its takeover of local housing for use as tourist rentals? Responsible travel means acknowledging that common travel methods can be damaging to local communities. I don't have a solution to offer, but I'm troubled that travel is increasingly becoming a villain rather than a force for understanding and tolerance. Mrkstvns (talk) 14:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- It sounds like there may be some tradeoffs. If travel is to be a force for understanding, then maybe staying in a rental house in an ordinary neighborhood is more effective than staying in a hotel in the business district.
- I read some years ago a story about two men on a hike through a mountainous area where a new road was being considered. One was an environmental activist, and the other was a geologist. The environmentalist said that if people want to see these glorious views, they should hike up here on their own two feet. The geologist said that his wife was a wheelchair user. Should she not be able to see glorious views? WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:40, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's not just calling out destinations, but also travel practices that damage places and local economies. In the area of parks, too many parks are overdeveloped: should national parks really build more roads and camping areas with pull-through sites and hookups to accommodate huge RVs? Should we really keep mentioning Airbnb when cities around the world are considering regulations to ban (or at least curtail) its takeover of local housing for use as tourist rentals? Responsible travel means acknowledging that common travel methods can be damaging to local communities. I don't have a solution to offer, but I'm troubled that travel is increasingly becoming a villain rather than a force for understanding and tolerance. Mrkstvns (talk) 14:53, 6 December 2024 (UTC)
Destination dupes
[edit]In the context of overtourism and tourist traps, some travel media and influencers have suggested "destination dupes"; a similar but less visited alternative to a famous but overcrowded place; for instance visiting Bordeaux instead of Paris. Is this something for Wikivoyage? See here /Yvwv (talk) 03:08, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- Sure, but though I haven't been to Bordeaux, I can't see how it could be close to a dupe of the much larger Paris that has the Louvre, the Orsay, the Orangerie, etc., etc. Is Indianapolis a dupe of New York? Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:47, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think the idea is sound and should probably be pursued by Wikivyoage, too, but I do agree that Bordeaux probably isn't a dupe of Paris. Though I don't know what led to this assessment, so I cannot judge on this specific case. PragmaFisch (talk) 09:01, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- What counts as a duple probably depends on what you're looking for. If your target is the Louvre, there may not be any suitable alternatives. If your target is a place that adores food and wine, then Bordeaux might be delightful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's a good idea, and I think there are a few places a "dupe" can be mentioned in Wikivoyage's structure. For example, using Canyon de Chelly as a "dupe" of the Grand Canyon (similar beautiful scenery in the same region, but much less crowded): Canyon de Chelly can be mentioned in Grand Canyon#Go next or maybe Grand Canyon#Understand, as well as in relevant region articles (at least Northern Arizona and Arizona, and maybe higher-level region articles too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- On alternatives to Paris, I don't really think there are any closely comparable places, but Lyon and not Paris is considered France's greatest culinary city. However, in most other ways, I think it is a big come-down from Paris, though to be fair, I have yet to visit Lyon. It's just a lot smaller, and because power has been so centralized in Paris vs. les provinces for hundreds of years, the foremost museums and other cultural institutions have been placed in Paris by design, especially since the days of Napoleon. Someone who's been to both places could say whether the cultural institutions in Lyon are likely to satisfy someone who visits Lyon instead of Paris for a week or 10 days and wants to do something other than just concentrate on cuisine. Consider Italy and Germany by contrast as countries that weren't unified until the 1870s or the U.S., with its federal system of government (something in common with Germany) and several cities bigger and more important than D.C. in several spheres outside of federal institutions. For example, we could definitely consider Chicago as a viable alternative to New York as a place that can be visited for a week to 10 days, unless your main reason to visit New York is to go to a Broadway show (and even then, you can see shows in Chicago) or God forbid Times Square (could you be satisfied with Michigan Avenue on the Loop, instead?), and Munich is a viable alternative to Berlin, though very different and with not quite as diverse a complement of museums (but it's probably more touristy and certainly more expensive than Berlin). Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Very few places in the Nordic countries are overtouristed; the Faroe Islands are a rare example. In general, big cities or purpose-built resorts tend to have better infrastructure to handle a larger number of tourists than a small town. In Stockholm, one street (Västerlånggatan) is overrun by tourists, but the Stockholm Main Street recommends the parallel street, Stora Nygatan, instead. /Yvwv (talk) 21:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think that in many cases a single city would not be a complete alternative. Either the alternative would work as a replacement for a 3-4 day visit to the overcrowded city, or would form part of a group of cities that would make an alternative.
- For example, instead of visiting Edinburgh, go to the museums, music and parks in Glasgow, museums in Dundee, Stirling castle and Linlithgow palace. AlasdairW (talk) 22:21, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- While overtourism and domestic overcrowding are issues in many cities, they are rarely a problem in the whole city during the whole day. I visited Barcelona and stayed near Camp Nou between game days, and was nearly alone in the street. Travellers with a flexible schedule can easily avoid crowds. /Yvwv (talk) 00:12, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
- Very few places in the Nordic countries are overtouristed; the Faroe Islands are a rare example. In general, big cities or purpose-built resorts tend to have better infrastructure to handle a larger number of tourists than a small town. In Stockholm, one street (Västerlånggatan) is overrun by tourists, but the Stockholm Main Street recommends the parallel street, Stora Nygatan, instead. /Yvwv (talk) 21:14, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- On alternatives to Paris, I don't really think there are any closely comparable places, but Lyon and not Paris is considered France's greatest culinary city. However, in most other ways, I think it is a big come-down from Paris, though to be fair, I have yet to visit Lyon. It's just a lot smaller, and because power has been so centralized in Paris vs. les provinces for hundreds of years, the foremost museums and other cultural institutions have been placed in Paris by design, especially since the days of Napoleon. Someone who's been to both places could say whether the cultural institutions in Lyon are likely to satisfy someone who visits Lyon instead of Paris for a week or 10 days and wants to do something other than just concentrate on cuisine. Consider Italy and Germany by contrast as countries that weren't unified until the 1870s or the U.S., with its federal system of government (something in common with Germany) and several cities bigger and more important than D.C. in several spheres outside of federal institutions. For example, we could definitely consider Chicago as a viable alternative to New York as a place that can be visited for a week to 10 days, unless your main reason to visit New York is to go to a Broadway show (and even then, you can see shows in Chicago) or God forbid Times Square (could you be satisfied with Michigan Avenue on the Loop, instead?), and Munich is a viable alternative to Berlin, though very different and with not quite as diverse a complement of museums (but it's probably more touristy and certainly more expensive than Berlin). Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:53, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- Late to the discussion, but what I'm getting from this is
- if you're after a specific attraction or museum, there may not be any suitable alternatives;
- if you're after something more generic, like food or beaches, suitable alternatives may be better.
- Would this sum things up? --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 03:15, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds about right to me. I would include completely different countries in the "suitable alternatives". If you're after Italian weather, then parts of California, Australia, England, and South Africa would work for you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- Good point – weather is a good one too. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 12:25, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, there's really part of England that has weather like Italy? Where is that? By the way, lately, it's been absolutely impossible for me to edit this page from my iPhone. Pressing "reply" produces no response, and clicking the edit icon works only for the introductory section at the top of the article. Is anyone else having this problem when trying to edit this page with their iPhone? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- According to the climatologists, Weymouth and Portland technically have the same climate classification ("csb") as much of Italy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:21, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- @Trizek (WMF), have you tried to edit from the mobile site?
- @Ikan Kekek, is it just this page? Is it just Wikivoyage? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:24, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's just this page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have had similar issues – I did try keep up with this page when I was away in the outback last week, but more or less gave up (especially with the poor connection). --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 01:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- The connection wasn't an additional issue in my case. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:24, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- I have had similar issues – I did try keep up with this page when I was away in the outback last week, but more or less gave up (especially with the poor connection). --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 01:48, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- I can't reply on this page using the mobile view, even with the safemode activated. We will investigate this, thank you for reporting. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 14:03, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- T376048 tracks the issue. Trizek (WMF) (talk) 15:20, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
- It's just this page. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:40, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
- WhatamIdoing, there's really part of England that has weather like Italy? Where is that? By the way, lately, it's been absolutely impossible for me to edit this page from my iPhone. Pressing "reply" produces no response, and clicking the edit icon works only for the introductory section at the top of the article. Is anyone else having this problem when trying to edit this page with their iPhone? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:27, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- Good point – weather is a good one too. --SHB2000 (t | c | m) 12:25, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds about right to me. I would include completely different countries in the "suitable alternatives". If you're after Italian weather, then parts of California, Australia, England, and South Africa would work for you. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:25, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
- I think it's a good idea, and I think there are a few places a "dupe" can be mentioned in Wikivoyage's structure. For example, using Canyon de Chelly as a "dupe" of the Grand Canyon (similar beautiful scenery in the same region, but much less crowded): Canyon de Chelly can be mentioned in Grand Canyon#Go next or maybe Grand Canyon#Understand, as well as in relevant region articles (at least Northern Arizona and Arizona, and maybe higher-level region articles too. —Granger (talk · contribs) 14:25, 4 December 2024 (UTC)
- What counts as a duple probably depends on what you're looking for. If your target is the Louvre, there may not be any suitable alternatives. If your target is a place that adores food and wine, then Bordeaux might be delightful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:42, 3 December 2024 (UTC)
Formal language
[edit]The page is written by informal language. We need to make it more formal. Kaltenbrunner6 (talk) 19:38, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- If you feel like the phrasings are not in keeping with the advice on Wikivoyage:Tone, please plunge forward and edit accordingly. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:02, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- It's my fault, sorry. Kaltenbrunner6 (talk) 21:04, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- There's no reason for you to apologize or take blame for anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:36, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- You're just showing me stupid. Kaltenbrunner6 (talk) 01:35, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know what that expression means, but keep in mind that this is the travel guide anyone can edit, so as I said, if you feel anything should be edited, go ahead and edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- I suppose it is about WV:Tone: we want to use quite informal language, in contrast to Wikipedia. –LPfi (talk) 07:05, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- "as I said" - you're not the ruler here. You're very aggressive and arrogant. Kaltenbrunner6 (talk) 07:07, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- Please, assume good faith. Indeed, if there is a problem, you can fix it. But as not being a regular, it was good that you took it here to the talk page, instead of making extensive edits that might have been reverted. –LPfi (talk) 07:20, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- "I don't know what that expression means" - then learn English. We speak English here. Kaltenbrunner6 (talk) 12:56, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- I don't know what that expression means, but keep in mind that this is the travel guide anyone can edit, so as I said, if you feel anything should be edited, go ahead and edit it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:45, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- You're just showing me stupid. Kaltenbrunner6 (talk) 01:35, 30 June 2025 (UTC)
- There's no reason for you to apologize or take blame for anything. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:36, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
- It's my fault, sorry. Kaltenbrunner6 (talk) 21:04, 8 June 2025 (UTC)
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