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FYI: Phrasebooks are dying out
[edit source]https://www.economist.com/britain/2022/10/27/phrasebooks-are-dying-out
I'm not sure how actionable this is in the short term, but in the long term, as a digital style guide, we definitely need to think about how we integrate the sort of features that 21st-century travelers will want and rely on. E.g. I don't have a smartphone, but I know that many do and when traveling, they will use on-the-fly translation apps to communicate. Additionally, we've integrated some dynamic maps (and they're great), but having more responsive maps with features like being able to search a map locally and plan out routes is the sort of thing that a fully robust and useful travel guide will need. I realize I'm getting far afield when it comes to the topic of phrasebooks, but it's got me blue-skying about what the best free culture travel guide would be, and that's a responsive, dynamic Web experience that easily allows others to both get and post information seamlessly in real time across multiple languages. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:32, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- I didn't get how phrasebooks are supposedly dying out from the portion of the article before the paywall. Could you summarize the claim? Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:25, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Heads up that you can just hit Esc as it loads to read the whole thing. "Now the internet and machine translation are rendering them obsolete. Figures from Nielsen Book Research, a market-research firm, show that sales in Britain have fallen by 40% in three years. The phrasebook is dying." —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:18, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that's not a problem because we aren't selling anything. I haven't bought a physical phrasebook since 1994, but I do use teach-yourself audio and video. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Right, but consumers aren't buying them because they don't see value in them, compared to the Internet and machine translation. And as I mentioned in my initial post, real-time artificial intelligence-based translation is what travelers most want and use, so if we want to be the best travel guide, that is a service we will need to provide. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:11, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- What's very important is to provide good audio for as many phrasebooks as possible. That remains very useful. In terms of your larger hopes for this site, we need volunteers to program all of that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- We definitely need more Portuguese phrasebook-like phrasebooks. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- As long as we have phrasebooks and to the extent that we have them, I agree that they should be quality. I also think that we have finite resources, so communally, we should prioritize what has the greatest impact on actually helping someone travel. That could be phrasebooks, but it could also be something else. The nature of a volunteer-run resource that has no central management is that users will work on whatever they feel like, but that isn't contrary to prioritizing some things over others. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:11, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Multiple things can be true. And since ttcf, we need to meet travelers' needs as much as possible rather than focus on features that aren't meeting their needs. As a professional grant writer, I'd be happy to collaborate on a grant for Wikivoyage development if you are so inclined. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 07:08, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- On of my long-term daydreams is setting up an audio booth at in-person Wikimania, and having native speakers record the phrasebooks. It would require quite a lot of work (probably one person to handle recording and two to process/upload, plus someone to schedule folks in advance – you wouldn't want to rent that much equipment and then have it sitting idle), but I would expect grant money to be available to cover all of the expenses. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- One more problem with that is that you'd need to find a sound-proofed room. I expect there to be quite some noise in most places at a Wikimania, and you want to be somewhere where people pass by. Or was the scheduling about asking people to schedule a recording session in advance, away from the noise? –LPfi (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, you'd have to arrange a location. Perhaps a hotel room at the far end of a corridor, and a sign to put in the hallway asking people to be quiet during recording hours. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:50, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
- One more problem with that is that you'd need to find a sound-proofed room. I expect there to be quite some noise in most places at a Wikimania, and you want to be somewhere where people pass by. Or was the scheduling about asking people to schedule a recording session in advance, away from the noise? –LPfi (talk) 17:53, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- On of my long-term daydreams is setting up an audio booth at in-person Wikimania, and having native speakers record the phrasebooks. It would require quite a lot of work (probably one person to handle recording and two to process/upload, plus someone to schedule folks in advance – you wouldn't want to rent that much equipment and then have it sitting idle), but I would expect grant money to be available to cover all of the expenses. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- We definitely need more Portuguese phrasebook-like phrasebooks. SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 07:03, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- What's very important is to provide good audio for as many phrasebooks as possible. That remains very useful. In terms of your larger hopes for this site, we need volunteers to program all of that. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:01, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Right, but consumers aren't buying them because they don't see value in them, compared to the Internet and machine translation. And as I mentioned in my initial post, real-time artificial intelligence-based translation is what travelers most want and use, so if we want to be the best travel guide, that is a service we will need to provide. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:11, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Well, that's not a problem because we aren't selling anything. I haven't bought a physical phrasebook since 1994, but I do use teach-yourself audio and video. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- Heads up that you can just hit Esc as it loads to read the whole thing. "Now the internet and machine translation are rendering them obsolete. Figures from Nielsen Book Research, a market-research firm, show that sales in Britain have fallen by 40% in three years. The phrasebook is dying." —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:18, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
For the responsive, dynamic experience Justin mentions, that requires programming, which isn't the strength of this community. There are some interesting things being developed elsewhere in the WMF ecosystem and I suppose we should try to be in contact with people developing those. I suppose they currently focus on integrating Wikipedia and Wikidata with position aware apps, but travellers are those that would benefit the most.
On the other hand I am frustrated by sites trying to offer such an experience: my bus app loads routes and map as soon as I change any parameter, having me wait for the updates, instead of letting me push "search" when ready. Many web sites ask for my position before allowing my viewing anything – although I am doing research on a place where I am planning to go.
With a good connection and charging locations handy, it is nice to have the instant everything experience, but while travelling those are not given. And even at home – the radio pollution from mobile broadband and the power use from charging batteries are becoming significant problems. We should avoid becoming dependant on them.
Can you ask our map to show your position? What needs to be done with the map view to allow search on place names? Should you harvest OSM (and Wikivoyage) for nearby names? I saw a simple app allowing you to point at an island in the archipelago and displaying the names of the candidates as overlay on the camera view (here with our thousands of islands, there usually are several in the general direction), perhaps also showing the Wikipedia article. A more advanced one let you point with the camera at a building in Stockholm or New York and have it display the Wikipedia article. What else would be useful?
–LPfi (talk) 10:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
- m:WikiConference North America/2022 might be the place to talk about this. Mapping USA/OpenStreetMap has joined them. It starts this Thursday evening, and it appears that you can still get free tickets. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:49, 6 November 2022 (UTC)
Marking the Baltic states as Russian-speaking countries
[edit source]I don't think Russian is going to get you very far in 2023 in either of the three Baltic states. Should the three countries be shaded in grey instead? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs | meta) 02:33, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- There are big Russian-speaking minorities. The question is whether there is a Russian speaker around where you need them, and what our threshold is. What about Hindustani in southern India? –LPfi (talk) 06:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- If they're not Russian-speaking countries, is the U.S. a Spanish-speaking country, is Israel an Arabic-speaking country, and is New Zealand a Maori-speaking country? Ikan Kekek (talk) 13:45, 13 April 2023 (UTC)
- I assume the map is about where you can get along with a language. I don't think enough New Zealanders know Maori or US people Spanish (except, perhaps, in some states). It is difficult in cases where the "regional" language is well-known in some circles. Should we include countries where you get along in the cities and on tourist tours, but not elsewhere?
- While the map's caption is about regional languages, this article is about phrasebooks and the section discusses "which language you'll be focusing on for your trip". If you are going to Estonia, you should have the Estonian phrasebook, or just use English. For Talk#Regional languages including Estonia in the Russian-speaking region makes more sense.
- "Regional languages" on the map refers to multi-national languages, with the arguable exception of Chinese, the official language of such a large country that it's no problem to show it on a thumbnail-sized world map. Is Russian so little spoken in the Baltic States now that they should be colored gray as blank? Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:39, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- The Russian-speaking have not left the Baltic countries; they are still very large minorities. The problem with Russian there is that it is not a very good start with the non-Russian: young non-Russian usually don't speak it and some may be offended if it looks like you think they are part of the "Russian sphere". –LPfi (talk) 19:05, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
- I get that, but is that enough of a reason to color those countries gray? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:57, 16 April 2023 (UTC)
I don't think they should be classified as Russian-speaking countries given that you could offend the locals by speaking to them in Russian unless you happen to meet someone from the ethnic Russian minority. We should not give people the impression that you can just go up to a Lithuanian/Latvian/Estonian and speak Russian, and you'll be fine. And in fact, I'd say Ukraine should be coloured grey too unless we have confirmation from someone that Ukrainians will not be offended when being addressed in Russian by a foreigner (and in fact, weird as it may sound, I've been told by a Ukrainian-American many of the Ukrainian war refugees in America don't even want their kids to learn English, let alone Russian). In a similar vein, I would not advise to traveller to walk up to a local in Hong Kong and start speaking in Mandarin, because you could offend the person if he has pro-independence leanings.
Speaking of which, the map needs to be corrected for other things too. French is also spoken by many people in Tunisia, so Tunisia should have the same striped colours as Algeria and Morocco. The dog2 (talk) 15:08, 18 April 2023 (UTC)
Optional "Cognates and false friends" section?
[edit source]I think this is a really useful section for some languages, and in some cases it could be just "False friends". Is it at all an issue if I add this section header where appropriate? I added a dedicated "Cognates" section in the French phrasebook, and there are relevant paragraphs in the Italian phrasebook, German phrasebook, Malay phrasebook, Indonesian phrasebook and some others. I think it's particularly helpful when there are cognates with English that fall into patterns and common false friends for English-speakers to look out for. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:14, 7 May 2025 (UTC)
- I think it is useful to have this section, but maybe a more informal title would be better. I am not sure if everybody recognises "cognates". Maybe "Sounds the same" or "Sounds like English" would be better titles. This also raises the question of should this just be cognates with English? - about half the Slovak phrasebook is conjugate with the Czech phrasebook. AlasdairW (talk) 22:54, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
- No, it shouldn't be just with English, as per the Malay phrasebook, too. But the thing is, they usually don't sound the same. Look at French phrasebook#Cognates, especially the -tion words. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:00, 8 May 2025 (UTC)
Not for professional linguists and not encyclopedic
[edit source]I think we need to spell out explicitly in the "Understand" section that Wikivoyage phrasebooks are not intended for professional linguists, not encyclopedic, and need to be understandable to the average English-speaking traveler who could profit from having survival-level proficiency in the basics of a language, suitable for a trip of about 2 weeks to a summer. Does anyone object or would anyone like to suggest a different phrasing? (We should also address the use of IPA, though we can consider that in a separate thread if considering it here would confuse the focus of this thread.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:33, 25 November 2025 (UTC)
- I think IPA needs its own thread. If we include it, it is not for professional linguists, but for those who learnt a bit of IPA studying another language (over here, IPA was used in most every textbook in foreign languages I've studied, and in most dictionaries of those languages). –LPfi (talk) 15:07, 26 November 2025 (UTC)
- Right. But do you have an opinion about the language I want to add in the "Understand" section that does not relate to my parenthetical remark about IPA? In case there's any confusion:
- I think we need to spell out explicitly in the "Understand" section that Wikivoyage phrasebooks are not intended for professional linguists, not encyclopedic, and need to be understandable to the average English-speaking traveler who could profit from having survival-level proficiency in the basics of a language, suitable for a trip of about 2 weeks to a summer. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:29, 26 November 2025 (UTC)
- I don't object to such a remark, although I am not sure it is needed. –LPfi (talk) 15:13, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- It is needed because it's a recurring issue in phrasebook edits and it would be useful to refer to specific language here. See Kangean phrasebook and its talk page, ignored by the main editor so far, for a current example of why we need clear language on what Wikivoyage phrasebooks are and aren't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:28, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- I agree here. No objections to your phrasing from me. //shb (t | c | m) 20:47, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- Done. As always, have at it if you see something you can improve. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:32, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
- That looks great to me – cheers, Ikan. :) //shb (t | c | m) 10:44, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
- Glad to take care of this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:01, 30 November 2025 (UTC)
- That looks great to me – cheers, Ikan. :) //shb (t | c | m) 10:44, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
- Done. As always, have at it if you see something you can improve. Ikan Kekek (talk) 06:32, 28 November 2025 (UTC)
- I agree here. No objections to your phrasing from me. //shb (t | c | m) 20:47, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
- It is needed because it's a recurring issue in phrasebook edits and it would be useful to refer to specific language here. See Kangean phrasebook and its talk page, ignored by the main editor so far, for a current example of why we need clear language on what Wikivoyage phrasebooks are and aren't. Ikan Kekek (talk) 15:28, 27 November 2025 (UTC)
Malay/Indonesian on the map
[edit source]If anyone would like to edit the map, you should add at least the Muslim-majority provinces of Southern Thailand and the Sulu Archipelago in the Philippines for Malay, but based at least on how they look in writing and the pronunciations shown in Wikivoyage phrasebooks, there are some other Filipino languages that are highly mutually intelligible with Malay, not all of which are in Mindanao as you'd expect (but Tagalog is not one of them, as it sometimes sounds very much like Malay and other times, it's totally not understandable to me as a formerly fluent Malay-speaker). Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:00, 30 November 2025 (UTC)
@Ground Zero, SHB2000: pinging since you two removed the merge tags from these two phrasebooks. I am rather sure that Fula and Fulfulde are the same language, yet the phrasebooks contain differing content (although some phrases are indeed the same). What should be done? HKLionel TALK 12:58, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- @HKLionel: Wikipedia names Fulfulde as the name of several varietiesof the Fula language. The user who had put the merge tags on those two articles did not provide any explanation for why they should be merged. In the case of Fula, the tag sat on the article for 11 months. In the case of Fulfulde, it was on the article for more than two years. These tags served no purpose.
- If you think the articles should be merged, you can put the tags back on the articles, and explain why they should be merged on the talk page of one of the articles. Wikivoyage:How to merge two pages explains the process. It does not say how long the discussion should be left open. If there are no comments, I usually wait one month before completing the merger.
- Merging the content would require some knowledge of the two languages, which I don't have. Would you feel comfortable doing that? Ground Zero (talk) 13:45, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- WV:Merge says if
the need for a merge is really obvious
, there's no need to start a discussion. I believe that since the 2 phrasebooks cover the same language (unless evidence is presented otherwise), there is an unambiguous duplication in scope, and discussion won't lead to any other conclusion. All the more so as Taoheedah, who wrote the Fula phrasebook, and the IP user who wrote the Fulfulde phrasebook are inactive, making it unlikely we will be able to verify anything relating to the language. Therefore, I was wondering if there is any policy and/or precedent for dealing with two pages with the exact same scope yet differing and sometimes contradictory content. HKLionel TALK 16:14, 22 February 2026 (UTC)- Therein lies the problem. To merge these correctly, we would need some familiar with the Fula language and its varieties. Are you familiar with them? If not, posting a proposal for discussion would be a way to find out if someone can do that. You can also try the Wikivoyage:Nigeria Expedition. There are many editors from that group who have contributed in the past, or even better, try to contact members of the Wikimedia community in Nigeria, which is quite active. I think it would be a very bad idea for someone who doesn't know Fula to attempt this. Ground Zero (talk) 16:58, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for your suggestions, I'll do so. I agree, that's why I posted here first. HKLionel TALK 17:06, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- I have to admit the Nigeria cafe is a bit dead atm – you might not get any response for a while, but I still think there is no harm in giving it a try. //shb (t | c | m) 22:41, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- Yes, there's always m:Category:User ff and w:ff: to go through. HKLionel TALK 03:13, 23 February 2026 (UTC)
- I have to admit the Nigeria cafe is a bit dead atm – you might not get any response for a while, but I still think there is no harm in giving it a try. //shb (t | c | m) 22:41, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- Thanks for your suggestions, I'll do so. I agree, that's why I posted here first. HKLionel TALK 17:06, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- Therein lies the problem. To merge these correctly, we would need some familiar with the Fula language and its varieties. Are you familiar with them? If not, posting a proposal for discussion would be a way to find out if someone can do that. You can also try the Wikivoyage:Nigeria Expedition. There are many editors from that group who have contributed in the past, or even better, try to contact members of the Wikimedia community in Nigeria, which is quite active. I think it would be a very bad idea for someone who doesn't know Fula to attempt this. Ground Zero (talk) 16:58, 22 February 2026 (UTC)
- WV:Merge says if
Sign language phrasebooks
[edit source]Would it be appropriate to make sign language phrasebooks? Such languages are actually in use, especially in places that have concentrated deaf communities, unlike say, Latin. HyperAnd (talk) 21:10, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
- Absolutely! How would you do it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:40, 17 April 2026 (UTC)
- Now that's the tricky part. Most of the notation used to write sign languages aren't very readable to an average traveller. We could simply just use video, but video isn't very editable for a wiki, so it should be supplemented with written notation if possible. The most promising notation I see are Wiktionary's notation and w:SignWriting. Wiktionary's notation doesn't use hard-to-understand symbols, but it's non-visual. SignWriting is very visual, but we need to enable a gadget to render it because most devices can't handle 2D arrangement of text. The gadget is mw:Extension:SignWriting MediaWiki Plugin, but unfortunately it's largely unmaintained. Here's the gadget implemented on ASL Wikipedia in the incubator if you want to see how it looks (though it doesn't render on the mobile skin). HyperAnd (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- My feeling is, if it can be useful to travelers, do it. I think video and pictures are most useful. I couldn't make head or tails of the ASL symbols, but is it important for travelers to know them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- My take: for most travelers, probs not – but I can see these phrasebooks being useful in the odd situation and I don't see an issue with sign language phrasebooks if someone is willing to create them and make such phrasebook useful. //shb (t | c | m) 08:05, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- Well, many deaf and hard of hearing people read and edit websites, and there are various different sign languages, so I think sign language "phrasebooks" would be very useful to that segment of our readership and also people with keen hearing who want to communicate with them. The difficulty, if anything, is that these would be primarily video or picture phrasebooks, but the concept is the same and the need is clear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:18, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- I think sign language phrasebooks would be welcome, but I do see practical difficulties. I understand that there are several English based sign languages: American Sign Language, British Sign Language, New Zealand Sign Language etc which may be difficult for sign users. The phrasebook would need to be illustrated with photos (or drawings) unless we change Wikivoyage:Image policy to allow short videos in this exceptional case. I don't think wiki editing of a video is an issue if videos are kept short (less than 10 seconds) so editing is done by uploading a replacement, as with photos. AlasdairW (talk) 21:07, 19 April 2026 (UTC)
- Well, many deaf and hard of hearing people read and edit websites, and there are various different sign languages, so I think sign language "phrasebooks" would be very useful to that segment of our readership and also people with keen hearing who want to communicate with them. The difficulty, if anything, is that these would be primarily video or picture phrasebooks, but the concept is the same and the need is clear. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:18, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- My take: for most travelers, probs not – but I can see these phrasebooks being useful in the odd situation and I don't see an issue with sign language phrasebooks if someone is willing to create them and make such phrasebook useful. //shb (t | c | m) 08:05, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- My feeling is, if it can be useful to travelers, do it. I think video and pictures are most useful. I couldn't make head or tails of the ASL symbols, but is it important for travelers to know them? Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:59, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
- Now that's the tricky part. Most of the notation used to write sign languages aren't very readable to an average traveller. We could simply just use video, but video isn't very editable for a wiki, so it should be supplemented with written notation if possible. The most promising notation I see are Wiktionary's notation and w:SignWriting. Wiktionary's notation doesn't use hard-to-understand symbols, but it's non-visual. SignWriting is very visual, but we need to enable a gadget to render it because most devices can't handle 2D arrangement of text. The gadget is mw:Extension:SignWriting MediaWiki Plugin, but unfortunately it's largely unmaintained. Here's the gadget implemented on ASL Wikipedia in the incubator if you want to see how it looks (though it doesn't render on the mobile skin). HyperAnd (talk) 00:37, 18 April 2026 (UTC)
Scriptbooks
[edit source]We have various foreign-language phrasebooks covered at phrasebooks. However, there's only one article that isn't about language but about a writing system, and that is Learning Devanagari, a "scriptbook". The very existence of such a "scriptbook" means there could be scriptbooks on Cyrillic or Perso-Arabic. However, the Cyrillic articles are deleted and salted for being "out of scope". So, should scriptbooks exist on Wikivoyage at all, or be migrated elsewhere (like Wikibooks or Wikiversity)? Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:13, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- As far as I know, travellers are more likely to talk to locals than reading scripts, especially as written languages can be translated with the translation services on your phone. Probably that's why we have so many phrasebooks and only one "scriptbook". Of course, there are obscure writing systems that translation services can't parse, and phrasebooks of respective languages are enough to cover such cases (since only one or few languages would use such obscure scripts). Sbb1413 (he) (talk • contribs) 07:17, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- There are downsides to pointing your smartphone at every sign you want to read. For Cyrillic, learning the letters isn't too hard, so anybody travelling to Russia (or Ukraine) should try. On the other hand, the alphabets could easily be explained in the phrasebooks, with remarks on pronunciation in context, so I don't think a scriptbook is warranted – but neither do I think it should be salted.
- Devanagari is more complex, and the ligature are not very intuitive for most English speakers. I think that included the content of that article into half a dozen individual phrasebooks wouldn't be a good alternative. How to handle the writing system is a judgement call and I wouldn't rule out other scriptbooks, although I cannot remind me any writing system for which I would recommend that solution.
- –LPfi (talk) 13:43, 28 April 2026 (UTC)
- I agree that while phrasebooks are useful for travelers, scriptbooks might be valuable, particularly for complex writing systems. They could be a good resource, especially for those not easily translated by phone apps. ~2026-69216-3 (talk) 15:20, 30 April 2026 (UTC)