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Swept in from the pub

Should we give advice of how to avoid tolls? It is not in and by itself illegal, but it often involves somewhat local knowledge and it is not always looked upon with friendly eyes by locals. Furthermore, in countries like Switzerland or Austria, trying to avoid tolls is usually a fool's errand, especially as you have to avoid all toll roads, not just some of them... Hobbitschuster (talk) 23:05, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there's anything unethical about it, though if your financial position is such that road tolls can make or break you, you probably can't afford to travel in the first place. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:53, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You can drive from Lille to Seville almost exclusively on toll roads. That 2000 km péage fee won't look pretty, whatever your financial situation. This advice would be obviously useful to travellers, and no dubious claims of locals taking against it are going to outweigh that. I say if anyone has shunpike advice to give, don't hold back on giving it. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:09, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well I for one think nearly every single thing associated with driving is too cheap, but that is neither here nor there. France has a better system of tolls than does Austria - in Austria you pay a lump sum for all toll roads with the exception of a few singular roads that have their own special toll... And I think locals are justified in their anger if a whole caravan of vehicles waltzes through their downtown just to save a few coins... Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:14, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And I don't drive at all, but can still see why people who do would find this info helpful. NIMBY rage from 'locals' is not WV's concern, no matter how legitimate the grievance. All we can do is tell travellers how to respect their surroundings, we can't actually force them to do it. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 00:33, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is definitely useful advise. Of course where there are issues created by those avoiding tolls clogging up local roads, this should probably be mentioned as well, just like we would mention other cases where tourism might have an impact on the sentiments of local people (I can think of Uluru-Kata Tjuta National Park for instance). Drat70 (talk) 00:43, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Should for each country, or state give the plus and minus. From my experience: Austria and Switzerland - virtually impossible to avoid, not worth the effort; France and USA - journey takes much longer and more starts and stops so costs more in fuel; UK can save time and distance too, but London should not use car unless really have to; Sweden can avoid with effort and time, more useful to know about time dependent fees; Italy - prices so low not worth avoiding. From the unethical side, living in a village that trucks pass though to avoid tolls, this point should also be mentioned. On the plus side of avoiding toll roads, the traveller gets to see more of the region, more towns and sites, and can bring income to local businesses.--Traveler100 (talk) 07:22, 4 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

I have found in recent times that the word "service" is increasingly used as a verb. It sounds just weird to me. Is that a dialect of English issue, an unusual but perfectly cromulent wording, or am I right in finding it weird? Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:50, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd use "serve", but it's not incorrect. Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It really depends on the sense. When used as a synonym for 'serve' (e.g. "The station is serviced by frequent trains") it looks weird to me and possibly wrong. But other uses are normal: the mechanic serviced my car (she gave my car a full 'check up', and fixed any problems she found); the stag is servicing more than one doe (the stag is sleeping around... attempting to pass on his DNA to as many females as possible). As I said, it really depends. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 20:03, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It mostly concerns "service" as used in the first sense you mentioned... Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:14, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with ThunderingTyphoons! The mechanic definitely doesn't serve the car. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:43, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree with TT: other than mechanics and stags, "servicing" is just a longer way of saying "serving". It isn't necessary or better. Ground Zero (talk) 20:51, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like it's perfectly cromulent. In particular, a usage like "Bus route 123 services the neighborhoods of Podunk and Timbuktu" is perhaps not any better than using "serves", but seems to be totally acceptable. --Bigpeteb (talk) 00:05, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed with Bigpeteb. Depending on context, in come cases only one or the other word fits, but there's a considerable degree of overlap where both "service" and "serve" are appropriate. Barring full-fledged malapropism, I don't think we ought to be in the business of establishing preferred verbiage. Our policy should be to leave authors alone and free to do their thing unless and until there's a truly compelling reason to step in and change stuff around. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 00:34, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is proposing regulating this. I think Hobbit was just asking to understand English usage better. Ground Zero (talk) 01:54, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I generally think of this word in some industrial or commercial context. E.g. "I served my wife breakfast in bed" but "the mechanic serviced my car". If I were doing something similar, I would probably say "fix" (i.e. "I fixed the toaster over the weekend.") Servicing in my mind implies some level of skill or competence. There can be professionals who "serve" something—a computer server or a server/waiter/waitress at a restaurant—as well. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:16, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ground Zero - okay, looking more closely at this discussion, I can see that now. The first two sentences of my original comment still apply, though. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:18, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Justin, I think you fix a vehicle that is broken, but service a functioning vehicle as part of its regular maintenance. Ground Zero (talk) 01:36, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, good point. Curiouser and curiouser. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 09:06, 20 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

I've recently found that the "Add template" button won't switch to a blue background when you need to add the template. This includes problems with adding listings. Selfie City (talk) 15:23, 18 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be fixed now. Selfie City (talk) 00:14, 19 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

In addition to them being surveillance devices, Instagrammers are sucking the life and soul out of travel. "My view of Sri Lanka was spoiled by the peachy backsides of tourists obsessed with their social media feeds." —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 05:31, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As much as I like The Guardian as a source of news, its travel section can basically be summed up by "All these bloody tourists ruin everything for proper voyagers like me. They should all just stay at home and leave the enlightened few (i.e. Guardian journalists and their families) to enjoy [destination] in peace". It's a hideous lack of self-awareness and a huge dose of self-entitlement. Funnily enough, The Telegraph, which as a newspaper is too right-wing for my tastes, has an excellent travel section with loads of well-researched and sublimely written (and illustrated) features. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

If a previously-scheduled annual event that is listed in the 'Events' list of a city article's 'Do' section is cancelled, is it normal to delete the listing as soon as the cancellation becomes apparent, or is it better to keep the listing in a modified state (informing travellers of the cancellation) until the date it would have been held has passed? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 16:45, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is more useful to have information that it is cancelled. May want to treat permanently cancelled or just this year cancelled a little differently. If permanently cancelled and a well known event should have a sentence on the fact, if a minor event people outside the area would not of heard of then just delete. For a one off cancellation but back next year, keep and add content appropriately. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:16, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that sounds reasonable. The event in question is a lesser-known winter spin-off of a popular summer music festival. Probably worth keeping just for this association until the date has passed. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 19:03, 23 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

Noted this in passing, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-highlands-islands-43063365

@Bluerasberry:, Maybe something the ConsumerReports people have covered in respect of outdoor clothing in the US? ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 10:43, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I made a note on the risk in Orienteering and Wilderness backpacking, could perhaps be done better. --LPfi (talk) 13:57, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As the BBC link may not work for all readers, see this from Mountaineering Scotland, whose safety adviser is quoted by the BBC. I would also suggest keeping compasses away from motors (including fans) and wind-up torches. AlasdairW (talk) 23:37, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I solicited some feedback on tea. I'd like to see what 1.) others think of the feedback presented, 2.) my method of trying to solicit feedback, and 3.) if anyone has better suggestions. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 06:55, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is an interesting way to solicit feedback. Thanks for plunging forward. I noticed that pageviews for the article went up substantially for a few days. I wonder how this would compare to articles posted on the Main Page (as DotM, OtBP, FTT or Discover) and to articles shared on other social media like Facebook and Twitter. The choice of subreddit would also make a difference. The question would potentially be just as relevant in the /travel/ subreddit. Other WV articles could be discussed in a subreddit dedicated to that city, country or region.

In terms of the feedback, I tend to agree with what a lot of what "cha_waan" said although it has to be said that unlike Wikipedia which follows NPOV, we follow being "fair" which allows personal opinions and original research to be stated within the article. I definitely agree that saying "XYZ tea is very good" doesn't add much value. This is a problem on many WV articles actually. Sometimes it is hard to talk about the difference between restaurants and hotels. Many listings end up saying "This hotel is nice and reliable" which doesn't reveal much. Gizza ^(roam) 21:10, 11 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, agree with a lot of what cha_wan says, except that I don't know if this can be turned into a reference guide as such. I think that we couldn't possibly cover the topic of tea sufficiently for really sophisticated, wealthy connoisseurs and also that we need to keep a specific focus on travel and on what styles of tea are typical and available in different parts of the world. I think there are indeed areas where the general level of the tea is better than others, and I also think that there are particularly good teas that are widely available in certain places. I guess I can try to describe the taste of Cameron Highlands tea from Malaysia a little more by memory, but beyond saying that it has a well-balanced flavor with a pleasant degree of natural sweetness, I don't know what else I could say. Perhaps some of our Malaysian contributors like User:Chongkian might be able to help more. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:18, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The information about where tea-growing originated is a somewhat hedged summary from w:Tea, which makes sense to do, since Wikipedia is our sister site. See w:Tea#Origin and history:

Tea plants are native to East Asia, and probably originated in the borderlands of north Burma and southwest China. Statistical cluster analysis, chromosome number, easy hybridization, and various types of intermediate hybrids and spontaneous polyploids indicate that likely a single place of origin exists for Camellia sinensis, an area including the northern part of Burma, and Yunnan and Sichuan provinces of China. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:23, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Koavf: Regarding the method, I think this is really interesting and worth trying more. I wrote some related notes at w:en:WP:Stackexchange and Reddit a while ago, but haven't had time/energy to move it beyond that. I was particularly thinking of bi-directional work, between both article-content, reference desks, and the external sites (i.e. we should avoid just trying to get them to help us; we should also consider the possibilities of perhaps steering forum-style questions from readers, to them - perhaps via talkpage templates, or via wikiproject external link sections, or similar). Kudos for trying new things. I wish I could help, but am already backlogged in work and volunteer tasks, so I'll just encourage you (anyone) to take my notes and run with them, if you're interested. Build the web! :-) Quiddity (talk) 19:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Quiddity: Thank you. We really need to have best practices recorded at outreach:. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:24, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When googling a geographical place, I've suddenly been seeing a box with "things to do in X" and "X travel guide". Click on it and you get to see things like this.

So Google now has a travel guide too. But there's more to that. When you go look for some destination that's not a worldwide travel destination, like Iisalmi, the description is from our sister project Wikipedia. We use the same license as Wikipedia, if I'm not mistaken. What if we could somehow get Google to use some of our content and refer to us in their travel guides? That level of publicity could propel us far above the other site in the Alexa ranking, couldn't it? --ϒpsilon (talk) 19:26, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why would google do that? Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:52, 12 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why would Google do what? Have a travel guide or link to us? -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:07, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Umm... because our text is often better suited for a travel guide (when it comes to tone and content) than text from Wikipedia, which they now are using? --ϒpsilon (talk) 11:48, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

However it would be more likely that a large advertising company would come to a commercial arrangement with the other site (where their ads could be hosted), unless our site was say 100x bigger. AlasdairW (talk) 12:20, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They have already decided to use content from Wikipedia, which does not accept ads, so we should not count ourselves out, especially as the other site's content is getting staler and staler. Ground Zero (talk) 12:27, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And they don't need to come to any financial arrangement with Wikipedia (or indeed with us) to use our content. If they wanted to reuse Tripadvisor / Rough Guide / travelling millennial instagram flavour of the month content, they would. It's at least worth trying, but does anyone know how to? Google are notoriously difficult to contact. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:59, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Most people still don't know that we exist. If you ask the average traveller with internet access to name up to 10 travel websites they know, Wikivoyage is not going to be one of them, unfortunately. WT is slightly more well known but declining as already said above. Google started integrating Wikipedia information into its search when Wikipedia was already a household name. And it seems to have actually reduced the number of WP pageviews (I remember reading an analysis on WP) because many people just read the summary brought up on Google instead of clicking on the link. I believe the second biggest WMF wiki is Wiktionary, and using information from Wiktionary could be useful too when people search for dictionary definitions but that hasn't happened yet. I think this is a long way away for Wikivoyage. Gizza ^(roam) 13:11, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think that the fall in WP pageviews is a sign of a benefit to Google. People are now more likely to start their enquiry on Google rather than going straight to WP. So Google gets more pageviews, and an increased chance of an advertising link being clicked. Most WP pages usefully introduce the topic in the first sentence or two, but many of out articles do not - how useful would getting the first 100-200 characters of one our articles be?

If we are going to approach Google, we need find a way to pitch it as an opportunity for them to make money, or solve a specific problem that they have. AlasdairW (talk) 16:14, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikivoyage should be doing what's best for Wikivoyage, not what's best for Google. If Wikipedia experienced a net loss in page views as a result, I would just as soon not approach Google about this (and pray that they don't start including our information of their own accord). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:31, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

At Wikimedia there probably is someone who knows how to contact large organizations.

Google has of course set up a travel guide because they think there's a market for one. Travelers, as opposed to someone who's googling e.g. a person or a flower species, usually want to read more than just a paragraph about the destination (and its cuisine etc.), and this is where we would come in. Sure, many of these people would probably still use Google for attractions, restaurants, hotels but they would at least get to hear about our site. As it has been pointed out, we are not the most famous travel site on the Internet (let alone as famous as Wikipedia) and therefore I don't think we have anything to lose.

That said, if there's a risk that all this will do more harm than good let's not proceed with this further. ϒpsilon (talk) 17:50, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

At the risk of being pedantic or arguing past the point, we should do what is best for the traveler as he comes first. That is not always identical to what is best for Wikivoyage or the WMF or whatever. I've no doubt you agree but want it stated for due diligence. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:10, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Justin, if Google reuses our data and that benefits the traveler, then it is a good thing. Our ultimate goal is not to get many pageviews, it is to get quality information under the eyes of those who need it :-) Syced (talk) 09:13, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not that we had much say in it anyway, but it appears we probably lost before the battle was even fought. I just did a search for a city (not even looking for travel info) (it was Inverness, if you're curious), and Google's results included a preview box linking to their travel guide, followed by another summary box with a link to the other site. --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:06, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How would other handle User:Yogada? Would a speed delete request and block of account be the correct response to a userpage entry? Or am I missing something? --Traveler100 (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to be a spambot, and the account is apparently already globally locked despite having just one single edit. --ϒpsilon (talk) 12:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Traveler100, I think it's embarrassing — if not to you, to the site — to have your tendentious statement about an "over-enthusiastic admin" at User talk:Yogada. I'd suggest you delete it. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:50, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So a touting entry to a users own page, and their first edit, is a reason for a global block? Some advice and maybe a warning on what is acceptable yes, but a global block? Why treat this harsher than the Parkland article entry? --Traveler100 (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Meta is privy to information we aren't. In general, global blocks don't happen unless there's a damn good reason. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:05, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I asked, the reason was that it was from India so probably was intentional spam (would loose my job for a comment like that). Which I agree it probably is, just personally think, first time should be warning, second or third offence should be block. Particularity as this was on users own page not in an article. Just concerned things do not get to policed and discourage contributors. --Traveler100 (talk) 22:20, 6 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No. Don't change my words. I said "Brand new user posting a link to external website for their first contribution means it is highly likely that they are spam." 1, "I do believe that user’s sole intention is “to spam on Wikimedia wikis”(Global locks), so I don’t feel comfortable unlocking it. You can request unlock from other uninvolved steward at Steward requests/Global." 2. Anyone can verify this at meta:User talk:-revi#voy:User:Yogada. Where does it say it is related to India? Artix Kreiger is NOT me. For the record, I am not an administrator on English Wikivoyage. Thanks. — Revi 05:16, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's nothing we can do about it locally at this point, but for what it's worth, the thread on Meta has moved me firmly into the position that a global lock was unnecessarily overzealous in this case. Yes, this was most likely a spammer, but how likely was it to be a serial, crosswiki spammer? As long as the problem is contained within one wiki community, then let it be handled locally within that community, I say. No need to use a sledgehammer for what can be done with a flyswatter. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:26, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I ultimately agree with you. I was too hasty to object to Traveler100's reaction in this case. However, I do think it was pretty clearly a spam account, although we should have been able to handle it ourselves by blocking or warning the user and giving them a chance to appeal on their talk page if they weren't a bot. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:22, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

e now available.[1]

Also Alexa says there has been a significant increase in readership in the last few weeks[2]

Best Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:07, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The increase in the last few weeks is presumably due to the links from other Wikimedia projects for the Wikivoyage edit-a-thon 2018. So we can expect it to drop off somewhat after February, but hopefully some of the new readers and editors will keep coming back. Nurg (talk) 09:48, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alexa's ranking is based on a 90-day cycle so it will probably drop off in May this year. Is it possible to see pageviews by country for previous months? Gizza ^(roam) 23:37, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not seeing the ability to look at other months for the breakdown by country.

This graph shows the big jump in readership.[3]

A more than doubling. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:54, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you don't see the big jump, then click over to "3-Month" view below the graph. Some views stop at the end of last calendar year. The biggest increase was in people on the mobile site (who tend not to be editors). WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:11, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Doc James, WhatamIdoing, DaGizza, Atsirlin: How would people feel about running a very low level awareness campaign to follow up, running at like 5%. Just pointing to the Wikivoyage main pages? To keep up a little momentum from it in terms of traffic to wikivoyage. I've long been a fan of low level campaigns since they could have huge impact with much less disruption compared with a massive campaign. Seddon (WMF) (talk) 21:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Seddon (WMF), that's a great idea! However, we probably need to change the banner, because edit-a-thon can't run forever. Regarding the link, I would prefer to point to a dedicated landing page, which is adapted to newcomers. The main page is just the main page. It says "OK, now you are at Wikivoyage" without explaining what it is and how to contribute. --Alexander (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Alexander and think it is a good idea. The best general landing page on English Wikivoyage would probably be Wikivoyage:Welcome, Wikipedians or Wikivoyage:Welcome, newcomers. I don't know if the other languages have equivalent pages. It would be good to bring more languages in the awareness campaign too. I remember a Dutch-speaking editor finding out about the edit-a-thon too late. Gizza ^(roam) 22:48, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think your idea is a fine one, but we'd need to decide whether the goal was readers or editors. If we're interested in "page views", then it might be worth running it only for logged-out users, maybe even only on mobile (and sending people to the main page is probably fine). If we're interested in "edits", then we could significantly reduce the potential for spam by only displaying it to logged-in editors on desktop only (and people should be sent to an onboarding page). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:17, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think it sounds like a good idea too, and I think it's probably better to restrict it to logged-in editors for the reasons you describe. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:42, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good point @WhatamIdoing:. Edits are more important than views, especially since productive edits will improve SEO and bring views in the long term anyway. Focusing on logged-in editors is a good way to go. Gizza ^(roam) 23:03, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing, DaGizza: - my proposal is to help bring awareness for readership to expose the projects to new readers. A separate campaign would then run alongside on Wikivoyage itself to encourage individuals to become editors. The two should occur in parallel. Seddon (WMF) (talk) 17:20, 7 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Seddon_(WMF): that sounds like a great proposal. Continuing the momentum created by the edit-a-thon is crucial. We could make the main page the landing page for the readers, which explains what Wikivoyage is and showcases our featured content. Gizza ^(roam) 21:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@DaGizza: - Timing wise do you think the community would be up for trialing something in the next couple of months? Seddon (WMF) (talk) 21:51, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For sure. And thanks for proposing this! Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:58, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

...but if the main page is the landing page, then maybe it shouldn't be displayed to folks on mobile, since there are problems/limitations reported with that page. Seddon, could we maybe get three campaigns, so that mobile and desktop can go to different pages? (Or maybe delay the reader-focused on until the mobile site's page has been improved?) WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:38, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@WhatamIdoing: Are there any ongoing discussions regarding the mobile page? With templatestyles being enabled soonish will that help? Seddon (WMF) (talk) 05:31, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Came across the article w:Ice hockey in North America which is in w:Category:Redirects to Wikivoyage. Not sure what to make of this. What do people think, good or bad idea? --Traveler100 (talk) 12:01, 8 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a good idea if done judiciously. Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:48, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per similarweb WV received 7.63M visits (2.55 pages each)[4]

While WT received 5.91 M visits (1.66 pages each)[5]

Congrats... Travel Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:37, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This will probably be one of the last things we hear of The Other Site. The wreck is sinking, and they had it coming to them. See also Wikivoyage and Wikitravel for a comparison of Alexa rankings. /Yvwv (talk) 15:44, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt that Internet Brands has come out with a net win of their attempt to shut down the fork or all discussion of it... Let's see when they pull the plug. At some point in time the servers will become more expensive than the advertising revenue... Hobbitschuster (talk) 19:31, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note that 2.8M views went to the edit-a-thon page alone. Looking at the Alexa and similarweb analyses, even though we are making progress and they are declining, they still have a much stronger SEO and social media presence than us. Gizza ^(roam) 22:50, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

According to Wikivoyage:Currency#Standard_notation currencies used on WV do have to be consistent and comply with a certain formatting.

Unfortunately, Template:Exchange_rates does not comply with these rules or is even able to apply them, e.g. whether the currency denation is before or after the amount, and whether to use a space in between.

Can someone fix this code/template, maybe by introducing optional variables like currencyCodeAfter and space? Unfortunately, I am not firm with the type of language.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 17:23, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ceever: I have set up version in the sandbox. See template discussion page for example. --Traveler100 (talk) 09:18, 30 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@RolandUnger, ויקיג'אנקי, Zerabat, Adehertogh, हिंदुस्थान वासी|हिंदुस्थान वासी|हिंदुस्थान वासी, Lkcl it, Yuriy kosygin, Visem, Eduaddad

In the aftermath of the Wikivoyage month edit-a-thon, a WMF representative got in touch with me and suggested that we make a short presentation (5-10 min) at the next Wikimedia Foundation metrics and activities meeting (March 29, UTC 19:00) to tell about the current status of Wikivoyage projects and community wishes. To prepare this presentation, I would be grateful for your feedback on the following:

• How do you rate the results of the edit-a-thon?
• What are the most important community goals and wishes that should be communicated to the WMF?

If you want to share something, please, do it ASAP, as there is only one week to prepare this presentation. Thanks for your participation! --Alexander (talk) 00:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The editathon was great! Sure, it brought a few vandals, but it was an overwhelmingly positive event for en.voy. There was a very great amount of excellent new content added - new articles, a lot of content filled into previously sparse articles and major updates to very old information. And some of the users who participated have continued contributing since then.

For me, the goal is to make this the best travel guide it can be. And for that, more content contributors are essential, and people who edit out incorrect spelling, grammar and the like and make articles more readable are also really helpful.

We have other important goals like making the mobile version of Wikivoyage excellent. As subsidiary goals, we could consider ways to present policies and guidelines more clearly and visibly and work on how best to work with new users to help them conform to Wikivoyage style and format without alienating them. Part of that just requires continued efforts to put ourselves in the shoes of new users who sometimes feel confronted and annoyed by reverts and efforts at corrective advice, but part of it is just making sure our policies are clear, consistent and widely understood, such as our policy on links to Wikipedia, which was finally cleaned up as a result of confusion among long-time users during the editathon. (Of course, some of this is really my reminding myself of things, but I still think this was worth posting.) Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

one of the current goals for which we might need help from other projects is the better integration of public transportation maps into our articles. In that field there is still some work ahead. Hobbitschuster (talk) 04:45, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is the first time that the Chinese Wikivoyage organizes this event and many contributors have edit during the event. I think this event is feasible.

About community goals and wishes, as Hobbitschuster puts it, the better integration of public transportation maps into our articles. --Yuriy kosygin (talk) 17:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yuriy kosygin, do your new contributors continue editing after the edit-a-thon? --Alexander (talk) 17:36, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alexander, Mmmm... No, I think new contributors should only come for event...--Yuriy kosygin (talk) 17:51, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In Ukrainian edition we achieves 123 new articles and 32 improved (+4 articles about Ukraine in other languages according to the rules of the contest). As for today we have 768 articles in Ukrainian. 45 participants took part in the contest, most of edited articles are about Ukraine, but also there are articles about other countries and general topics. --Visem (talk) 18:34, 21 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See this now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q3I2NabB3U The Wikivoyage section starts about three minutes into the recording, so we've got top billing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:08, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Alexander, sorry about the eleventh-hour reply. Ultimately, the goal was not so much to increase editor activity during the edit-a-thon itself, but to retain some of those newbies after it wrapped up, right? That being the case, I think it's too early to really evaluate the results. March 2018's projected readership numbers are certainly cause for optimism, but ultimately we'll have to wait until the dust settles a little more to see where the numbers land - whether they're higher than before the edit-a-thon, and if so, by how much. What we should focus on is how to translate this brief spike in activity to a sustained increase in our editor and reader population. This is the same reason why I was so enthusiastically in support of the "low-level awareness campaign" that Seddon proposed a while back (which I'd love to hear some updates on, if there are any). -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:36, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Andre, you can check what I said in the presentation and see whether you agree or not. I tried to make the point that the Central Notice clearly had no long-term effect on smaller Wikivoyages (which is easy to see from the recent changes) and articulate the need for technical developments. --Alexander (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the low-level awareness campaign, I am not sure that this idea is still on the table. At least, Joseph mentioned it differently in his part of the talk (Joseph, could you elaborate?) In my opinion, Central Notice has its limits, and running it continuously does not always help. One should probably collect the March-April statistics across different languages, and come up with a clear plan on where we want to go. --Alexander (talk) 19:21, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsirlin, AndreCarrotflower: - This is definitely still on the table and would love to try and schedule something during the next three months. Seddon (WMF) (talk) 15:49, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph, thank you. I suggest that we wait till the end of April and collect unbiased statistics for two months after the edit-a-thon. Then it may be good to try the low-level campaign, perhaps in selected languages (this is something to consider after we analyze the full statistics for March). What do you think? --Alexander (talk) 18:55, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsirlin: - I'd quite like to wait until at least mid-May, just due to other commitments and to give me enough time to set up some of the tracking analytics. But yeah I am definitely happy to draft up a proposal.

One question, how likely could we try to push improvements to the mobile front page with the new template styles? Does the community have the technical know how or would we need to bring in extra people power. Seddon (WMF) (talk) 00:23, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Joseph, I think that we need help with that, or at least some examples of how it could look like. --Alexander (talk) 03:57, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I would be grateful for any feedback on this presentation. This will be helpful for me and, hopefully, for anyone else who may have to give similar talks in the future. The pdf of the slides is here, and the pptx source can be provided on request. --Alexander (talk) 19:10, 29 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've only heard praise for your presentation, and I thought it was quite good. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:16, 30 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Atsirlin: I thought you did a fantastic job - thank you again for presenting! --Gregory Varnum (Wikimedia Foundation) (talk) 17:15, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, everyone. Earlier today, I was away from my computer and tried to edit this site on my Android. It was impossible. After every keystroke, my view moved to the top of the screen, so I couldn't see the text I was trying to edit. I didn't have that problem on Wikimedia Commons and could edit there. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:31, 7 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Strange, I'm not having that problem on Android. I do have a problem (both here and on Wikipedia) where my view moves up a lot whenever I click to put my cursor in a new place, but not after every keystroke. I use Firefox on my Android—what browser are you using? —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I use Chrome on Android and Firefox on my laptop. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I use Chrome on Android too and haven't noticed any issues. Are you on beta? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:19, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was on the regular site. Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oh right; me too. So it's not that then. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:35, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just so it's known, @Ikan Kekek: isn't the only one with this issue. I get the same issue, though the text jumps up about half the page while typing. Chrome build 65.0.3325.109 running on Android 7.0.0 here. I do, however use Wikivoyage Beta.
-- Wauteurz (talk) 10:18, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Which one is "the regular site"? Ikan says Chrome, which is very helpful information. Are you going to the mobile site at en.m.wikivoyage, or to the desktop site at en.wikivoyage? Are you editing the wikitext or in the visual mode? The screenshots at mw:Editor might help you figure out which one. (Feel free to ping me; once we've figured out which editing environment, I'll make sure a bug is filed.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 20:12, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

https://en.m.wikivoyage.org is where I was. I was trying to edit the wikitext by pressing the pencil icon on a section. Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:21, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello!

I'm wondering if there are any examples of bus timetables on this site? (Or rail would prolly work too.) I found this, and tried to update it like so, and then figured hundreds of other folks probably had this same problem at some point. I looked at all the templates, but didn't see anything there that meets my needs. Is this something that could be templatized? I could see a standardized format for bus and rail travel being helpful to the traveller, but I'm equally sure there is some reason this doesn't exist already. Thank you & happy Patriot's Day eve! --ButteBag (talk) 20:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For the actual bus times, it is generally better to link to either the bus company website, or a local journey planner / transit authority website if they exist. If there are no websites then the phone number of the bus station would be useful. Usually bus services are described in a paragraph giving an idea of the frequency. Bus times change frequently, so it is best to give some way of the reader getting the latest information. AlasdairW (talk) 21:04, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agree that bus times change frequently, I thought it might be easier to notice something amiss within a table rather than "hidden" within a paragraph of text? --ButteBag (talk) 21:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph is not supposed to say "the bus to Metropolis goes at 8:15, 9:15, 9:45... and 20:35" but rather "during the day there is at least an bus an hour to Metropolis. Hobbitschuster (talk) 00:16, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, I just figured if that information is expressed in a table, it might be easier to parse, which may encourage more frequent edits. --ButteBag (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is useful to state on pages here if a bus is just 3 times a week or every 30 minutes during the day but more than that should be taken from the transport company's web page. Clogging this guide site with timetables would not be beneficial. I would suggest setting up a specialist Wikimedia based site if you think it would be worth while. --Traveler100 (talk) 20:28, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A table may be easier to read, but I think that it is a lot harder for inexperienced contributors to edit. We want it to be easy for the traveller standing in the bus station to update the information using his mobile. A paragraph is also better for describing the route or facilities of a particular route: "From Bigtown Busco runs one bus (with reclining seats) per day over the bumpy but scenic mountain pass, and Coachco runs two buses per day (with WiFi) via the much longer coastal road.". AlasdairW (talk) 22:03, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

there are of course plenty of places where the bis company has no website or it looks like it was last updated under Kaiser Wilhelm and what to do in those cases is of course a valid question. Particularly when the bus schedule seems to have steady for years. Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:41, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Saw this on the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-43700833 ShakespeareFan00 (talk) 14:08, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's also this great documentary speaking with locals about how they deal with the excessive number of tourists in Barcelona. --ButteBag (talk) 19:02, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article pair on sustainable travel (ecotourism and responsible travel), but these focus disproportionately on damage to the natural ecological environment. The whole "UNESCO-cide" concept (where a world heritage listing for a venue attracts more visitors and more vendors hawking more tacky souvenirs, degrade the integrity or features which got the site listed in the first place) needs to be addressed. The issues vary from driving out local residents to make way for AirBNB-style rentals and closing stores which served locals in order to open overpriced tourist venues (loud bars, pricey restaurants, endless postcards and useless baubles but no local grocer, hardware store or community resources) to damaging the environment (tours or tour boats disturbing wildlife, garbage or sewage dumped into the environment, or huge crowds in what was once pristine nature preserve). The consequences of just plain too many visitors ("it's so crowded that no one goes there any more") on the community from a sociological, architectural, economic or historic preservation standpoint also need to be taken into account - one motorboat won't destroy Venice, but a million of them will erode the foundations of the old city. K7L (talk) 00:50, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maya Bay is an example of situational irony. The Beach (the book as well as the movie) presented the tourist's dilemma to avoid becoming too many in the same place. In the real world they didn't just inspire a new generation of backpackers to visit Maya Bay and ruin the pristine location, but had the same effect across much of Southeast Asia. So, even if we set aside the local population's interest, visitors themselves want to avoid overcrowded venues which are far from authentic. Many destination articles describe seasons and places with risk of overcrowding, and warn about classical tourist traps which are overpriced without authenticity. Too few people can also take down a travel experience; people who visit Stockholm or Uppsala in mid-July to mingle with Swedes, might find the city to be nearly deserted. /Yvwv (talk) 02:13, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perennial problem. One of the Philippines' top destinations, a former DotM here, is being shut down for six months to clean it up after too rapid & corner-cutting development; see Talk:Boracay#Sewage_&_other_problems. I once found an article by some Frenchman complaining that Bali was being destroyed by excessive tourism; it was written in the 1920s! Pashley (talk) 03:56, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A little off the beaten path here, but I wonder how many of us know someone (or know someone who knows someone) with a Wikipedia article? If so, I'd like to do a little plug for the c:Commons:Voice intro project. The idea is to get them to record a simple introduction. Some variation on "My name is ____, and I am ____" is just fine. It's fun for readers, and it should be helpful to anyone whose name gets mispronounced regularly. All the details are on the Commons page, or you can talk to Andy about it.

BTW, this kind of approach might be good for some articles here, for places whose names are difficult for travellers to figure out how to pronounce. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:14, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish Wikipedia has an article on me. Wikipedia:sv:Tore Kullgren /Yvwv (talk) 21:59, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Great - please record your voice for it. There is just one contribution in Swedish, so far. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Back in the '60s, my uncle Mike was briefly a New York Yankee. Also, I'm Facebook friends with Professor Frank Popper from Rutgers. I'll see if I can drum up some interest. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 22:26, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an example of an interesting contributor to the project: the first content made especially for a Wikimedia project, in space! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:24, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You all are awesome. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:57, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Phrasebooks

Didn't we have the debate whether to include audio files in phrasebooks and it went nowhere more than once? Hobbitschuster (talk) 22:17, 18 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, how about the audio for phrasebooks? That's much more relevant to Wikivoyage. I salute Wikipedia on this project, but it's a heck of a lot less important to know how to pronounce the name in a Wikipedia article you're reading than to know how to say "Where is the toilet?" in a foreign language when you're traveling. Ikan Kekek (talk) 05:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I have personal experience of exactly that at a service station in Spain several years ago. My pronunciation of ¿Dónde están los aseos? simply wasn't good enough and the situation was desperate. Good pronunciation is vital. But now we've got this shoehorn in, let's take it back to Talk:Phrasebooks#Phrasebooks. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:16, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dear colleagues!
Wikimedia Russia (WMRU) is a co-organizer of Discover Russia. 2018 FIFA World Cup Cities & Regions Wiki-Marathon (March 14 - July 15). Targeted CentralNotice banner campaign is initiated to inform Wikipedia, Wikivoyage & Wikimedia Commons visitors from among residents & guests of the Russian Federation about this opportunity.

• Draft Banner (EN)

Discover Russia. 2018 FIFA World Cup Cities & Regions

Write articles, upload images and win prizes!

• Terms: 20 May - 4 June 2018
• Audience: Anonymous visitors
• Wikipedia editions: en-ru-tt and possibly others, who will have local language landing page (though we mainly concentrate on Wikipedias in the languages of Russia)
• Weight & impression: low, TBD by CN-admins, preferably no more than 3-4 impressions per week (Limit traffic 3% like WMDE Spring 2018?).
  

We invite you to express your opinion, voice your proposals about improving the banner or its settings, here or (better) at banner request page in the language of this notification. We will be grateful if you can help us to create or improve the banner and the project landing page in Your language.
On behalf of WMRU Banner Program, respectfully--Frhdkazan (talk) 17:35, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am strongly against this Central Notice, because the rules of this edit-a-thon were never discussed with the Wikivoyage community. --Alexander (talk) 17:52, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Against - not enthusiastic about a non commercial site like Wikivoyage promoting FIFA. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:58, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I take no position on this proposal, but I don't think there's any Wikivoyage guideline against promoting a for-profit event. Haven't we done some kind of promotion for Eurovision or something, and certainly we have for the Olympics, right? Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:06, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also have no opinion, but I don't see this as a promotion of FIFA at all. As I understand it, what's being promoted is travel to Russia in general, via a campaign that's timed to coincide with, but otherwise doesn't have much to do with, the World Cup. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:24, 23 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@AndreCarrotflower, Ikan Kekek: the problem here is not FIFA promotion, but the intention to create "new articles for Wikivoyage... about sights and touristic objects", which is against basic policies, such as Wikivoyage:What_is_an_article?. Moreover, none of the two jury members has any record of editing Wikivoyage. Unfortunately, the organizers never bothered to contact us regarding the rules of this edit-a-thon, and repeatedly ignored all proposals from our side.

Last but not least, Wikimedia Russia is notorious for not sending prizes outside Russia (because of taxes, customs and whatever operational reasons), so advertising this edit-a-thon in the English-speaking community is nothing but cheating. You can participate and win, but you won't get the prize. We had this situation last year when a Spanish/German photographer won Wiki Loves Monuments in Russia, and only got his prize from Wikimedia Russia 6(!) months later after enormous pressure from our side. --Alexander (talk) 07:14, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oy! Thanks for explaining. :( Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:57, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The rules say that articles must be created on Wikipedia. Articles on Wikivoyage do not compete for the main prices but for "illustrated de luxe edition books" (nothing said about what genre or language). --LPfi (talk) 09:48, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: The proposal page looks dodgy and ill though-out (which may or may not be due to an unclear translation), and I trust Alexander's judgement too. ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 10:35, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The page barely mentions Wikivoyage; the contest is mostly about Wikipedia. It sounds like the early respondents would prefer to have Wikivoyage omitted entirely. That should be easy from the POV of the organizers, if that's what's desired. I kind of think it'd be a shame to miss out on an opportunity to get some more editors, though. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:03, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• The banner campaign is specifically targeting only those browsing from inside the Russian Federation territory. Landing page translation into English & initiating banner-campaign proposal on Meta is totally my responsibility. Based on Alexander's comments on ruWP news forum & WMRU-mailing list, I'm afraid he seems to be somewhat biased against any initiative of any Wikimedia Russia member. --Frhdkazan (talk) 14:04, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that I supported my point of view with arguments. i) no member of Wikimedia Russia has ever been in touch with anyone on Wikivoyage to discuss the rules of this edit-a-thon; ii) the rules make no sense in the context of Wikivoyage, because Wikivoyage does not write individual articles about sights, attractions, and tourist infrastructure; iii) the jury of this edit-a-thon has no record of editing Wikivoyage, so they can't make proper evaluation. You are welcome to argue with these three points rather than spread speculations about me and my relation to Wikimedia Russia (by the way, we have organized several WLE and WLM competitions together, so your assertions are just absurd). --Alexander (talk) 17:45, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Based on the additional information that's come to light since I last chimed in, I'm going to oppose this campaign. In the abstract sense, I'm certainly open to collaborating with Wikimedia Russia, but collaboration is a two-way street. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 18:37, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alexander, I think you're overstating the situation. The English Wikivoyage has some articles about some individual attractions (e.g., Disneyland) and quite a lot about tourist infrastructure (e.g., all of airport articles). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:19, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Articles about attractions are very much the exception, and we tend to have articles about only the largest airports, by design. Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:31, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

WhatamIdoing, we had a special discussion at Russian Wikivoyage. Yes, you can envisage a few articles that would fit the rules of both edit-a-thon and Wikivoyage, but they are not many, and they are not articles that new editors may be able to write ((like suburbs of Saint Petersburg - really the last tourist destination you may consider four your travel itinerary). Any Wikivoyage edit-a-thon should be primarily based on adding and editing listings, not creating individual articles. That's a rather simple idea that we could never convey to the organizers of this edit-a-thon. --Alexander (talk) 19:06, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• ThunderingTyphoons! has a valid point in saying that banner, its proposal and the landing page can and should be improved. Please be constructive by linking to best practices I could learn from myself & communicate to other (mostly non-English speaking) volunteers of Wikimedia Russia partnership, who are quite busy - as we cover some thirty languages & 170 wiki-communities (excluding those in Wikimedia Incubator).
• Alexander is also right to desire a stronger engagement of Wikimedia Russia volunteer-organizers with Wikivoyage community. But, as AndreCarrotflower rightly put it ― it's a two-way street.
• On top of Alexander's above-mentioned stingy tongue in ruWP forum & WMRU-mailing lists, I only see him adding the same poison into the ointment of cooperation on WMRU-wiki discussions on this contest:
  1. lamenting about the sponsor not being interested in Wikivoyage
  2. bullied Wikimedia Russia volunteer organizers for not pushing the sponsor to provide funds for prizes for Wikivoyage
  3. now that guys found own money to offer some prizes for Wikivoyage participants (that could actually be posted out of Russia), he choose to rallying against Wikivoyage from joining in. He is especially vocal @ Russian Wikivoyage.
• the organizers never bothered to contact us regarding the rules of this edit-a-thon, and repeatedly ignored all proposals from our side addressed at Ikan Kekek should be interpreted in the light of all above, plus likely choice of wrong venue/communication channel on behalf of Alexander (I don't see it in the WMRU mailing list, so it's not publicly visible). Regards,--Frhdkazan (talk) 07:32, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Frhdkazan, the organizers can still contact any of us if they are interested. On the other hand, if you or any of them continue with personal accusations, you will be blocked here at Wikivoyage. Please, take this as an official warning.

PS. The discussion at Russian Wikivoyage that you linked to is exactly the discussion of how one could take part in this edit-a-thon despite its strange rules and lack of communication with the organizers. --Alexander (talk) 08:24, 29 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

Birgit Müller (WMDE) 14:45, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, all,

The Wikimedia Foundation's Technology department would like to run a (very) small survey about performance on a few wikis. You can read more about it at phab:T187299.

I think that it would be ideal for this wiki to participate because the English Wikivoyage gets more traffic than many Wikipedias, and it's desirable to look outside the Wikipedias.

This survey would likely start in about two weeks. It would show a box with one question on a very small percentage of page views. (The results will be subject to the privacy policy, of course.)

If you have concerns about this, then please contact me directly by pinging me or leaving a note on my user talk page. Thank you, Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 21:17, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Swept in from the pub

While traveling, it's inevitable to be confronted with technical problems occasionally, particularly during longer trips. The growing popularity/spreading of fablabs, hackerspaces and makerspaces is of interest to the traveler, because they're the ideal places to patch up a ripped backpack, fix a broken headlight, charge up batteries, and so on. They're also ideal places to find a wired and wireless internet connection without being touted into purchasing food or drinks. Run and visited by locals, they're a de facto safe bet to seek for unbiased help if you run into trouble during travels.

Unfortunately, despite their importance/relevance, these places are currently often missing from Wikivoyage! In the rare instances they're mentioned, they're usually buried somewhere in the Cope section between hairdressers, veterinarians and endless lists of embassies... However, from a traveler's perspective, it's important to find a place where you can stich up a ripped backpack, particularly in more rural areas where alternatives are few and far between.

As such, it could be argued that such places are more important/relevant to mention than anything listed under the "Drink" section for example, since not all travelers are nightlife/party animals, but most will sooner or later be confronted with issues that could be resolved in a fablab or makerspace.

Which leads to the question: how can these be integrated into Wikivoyage? Do we need a new top level section, define a sub section to any of the existing sections, or redefine the scope of "Cope" (no pun intended)? Does it deserve its proper listing/marker color, or do we go with the generic green ones? What do other Wikivoyagers think? ArticCynda (talk) 20:54, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In many cases I think that the alternative to going to a hacker space is to go to a shop - either to buy needle and thread, or to buy a replacement backpack. So following that logic they could go in "Buy". However if a traveller is more likely to go to such a hacker space as an alternative way of spending the afternoon, coming away with just a keyring to put in a drawer back home, then they belong in "Do". If you have a lot of experience of these places, then maybe you could start a travel topic on these facilities. AlasdairW (talk) 22:23, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly the ambiguity I wanted to point out and fix: depending on one's interpretation it could go in nearly any section, and that's confusing for the traveler. Hence why a better solution is needed, in my opinion, than throwing it into "Buy" and/or "Do" and/or "Cope".ArticCynda (talk) 10:57, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think most such spaces would fit best under Do. Adding them is a good idea & they'd make a fine travel topic if someone wanted to do the work. They might also be mentioned at Digital nomad. Pashley (talk) 23:23, 16 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

ArticCynda, are you suggesting putting it in the "Connect" section? That's the only other possibility I can think of. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:15, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No because it's not in the scope of the Connect section -- which is should focus on internet and phone access. It doesn't seem to fit into any of the existing sections aside from a loose relation to "Cope", so it might be clearer to introduce a new top level section called "Fix" for something like that. ArticCynda (talk) 13:20, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't such a thing as a "loose relation to Cope" as "Cope" is merely a catch-all section for items that don't fit anywhere else. In some truly remote places, we have been known to list which villages offer fuel or repairs - for instance, Labrador#Get around lists the fuel with the transportation. If something isn't transportation and doesn't fit in "Buy" with the shop listings, "Cope" is the fallback. K7L (talk) 14:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As a preliminary reaction, I would tend to agree with K7L and oppose a "Fix" section, which could easily get filled with car repair shops and who knows what else (home appliance or building repairs, anyone?), but I'd be willing to hear out an argument. Considering that repairs are sometimes needed while traveling but even more likely to be needed at home, why is a new first-order section needed? Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:49, 17 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If the goal is to fix stuff, then ==Cope== is the right section. If the best thing to say about it is an internet connection, then ==Connect== makes sense (listing an internet+woodworking shop there makes just as much sense as listing internet+coffee shop there).

I'm not sure that I can agree with the overall premise, though. I kind of doubt that a typical business traveler (accounting for ~30% of US flights) would ever drop by a makerspace to stitch up a broken backpack, especially not when the nearest dry cleaner would likely stitch it up for you, and without requiring an annual membership fee. Also, makerspaces that are open to the general public (e.g., not inside a school) are tolerably rare in rural areas. I've got nothing against including them when they exist and offer something useful to a traveler, but it's more of an urban phenomenon. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:30, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hackerspaces are going out of business and closing down after all the 3d printing hype. There is alway a wiki page listing all hackerspaces but it is very out of date.

Hi everyone! I am very new to mediawiki and web design in general, and I absolutely love the layout of the main page. I figured out how to do the banner, but I'm struggling with the carousel. Can anyone explain to me how I can create a carousel? I tried reading documentation and it didn't help. Thank you so much everyone! You guys are amazing! 162.221.11.71 21:33, 17 May 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

Did you find https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-Carousel.js and https://en.wikivoyage.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Gadget-Carousel.css ? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:33, 18 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes I did! I'm not sure how to implement the two files though. Do I have to write something on MediaWiki:Common.js and MediaWiki:Common.css to enable the feature? 162.221.11.71 15:26, 18 May 2018‎ (UTC)[reply]

This site looks to be using mw:Extension:Gadgets to load the javascript? K7L (talk) 00:32, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Carousel implementation was moved from Mediawiki:Common.js and made a part of Extension:Gadgets around March 2015. I was told not to use it in article pages etc. Perhaps someone can clarify that assumption. -- Matroc (talk) 05:24, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you know how to implement jCarousel with Extension:Gadgets?

I used carousel several years ago and it may already be enabled by default. I don't remember having to do anything to use it. Check your Preferences - Gadgets and see if its box is checked. I would try doing a simple carousel on your Talk page or Sandbox and see what happens. There are several samples to be found by Google searching; also, may find some samples on GitHub... I also remember seeing a tutorial somewhere too. Others may know much more than I about this subject. -- Matroc (talk) 02:05, 20 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind I figured it out!

We fairly often have conversations that run off the right hand edge of my screen because there are too many layers of indentation. I think part of the problem is that people are indenting one more than the most recent comment when the rule should be one more than the comment you are replying to.

Not to pick on one user, since almost everyone seems to be doing this, but one clear example is at #Create_an_actual_Mars_travel_guide? above. It currently looks like this:

(quote)

I know that a little while ago a joke article was created for Mars, but ,,, Selfie City (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We can create such an article after a human being sets foot on those planets, not now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or even later, when private trips or colonisation start? Pashley (talk) 03:26, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be more inclined to move the Moon or Space into the joke category, frankly, than to move Mars out of it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely do not think Space should be moved, ... Pashley (talk) 10:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The only travel destination ever willed into existence ... Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:33, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(end quote)

Since Andre's comment is a reply to the original post, not to my remark above it, I think it should have less indentation; then the replies to it would as well, so overall we would have:

(quote)

I know that a little while ago a joke article was created for Mars, but ,,, Selfie City (talk) 00:28, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We can create such an article after a human being sets foot on those planets, not now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or even later, when private trips or colonisation start? Pashley (talk) 03:26, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be more inclined to move the Moon or Space into the joke category, frankly, than to move Mars out of it. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I definitely do not think Space should be moved, ... Pashley (talk) 10:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The only travel destination ever willed into existence ... Hobbitschuster (talk) 10:33, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(end quote)

In my view this both makes the conversation more readable & keeps the indentation levels down, so doing it this way is a no-brainer. On the other hand, perhaps I'm just being an old curmudgeon, wanting things to still be done the way I learned for Usenet comments back in the early 90s. What do others think? Pashley (talk) 13:56, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Indentation replies are an issue on every project ..... I agree it can be confusing at times but that's the way the MediaWiki software is ..... Not much anyone can do I'm afraid. –Davey2010^Talk 14:44, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the excessive indentation is an intentional thing, it just so happens that in a discussion one usually replies to the previous post, and so on. It is relatively rare to trace back to a previous post far back and reply to it, which is why the indentation is often fairly linear. Personally I don't think it's much of a problem since computer screens are fairly large these days (and the aspect ratios keep increasing, which is great for indentation!). ArticCynda (talk) 22:44, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We could solve the problem with indentation by switching to Flow (renamed Structured Discussions). I've been using it on mediawiki.org for a while now (all new talk pages default to it, and all the major discussion pages there have been converted). It has advantages and disadvantages, but it does a reasonable job of resolving threading problems. (It also brings people back to the wikis using it, because every reply or new thread to a watched page appears in your Echo/Notifications, no matter what wiki you're on today.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:33, 25 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A notification for every reply? I use watchlists for that (and it works threadwise if people leave the section heading in the summary). Notifications of foreign wikis take non-trivial time to load, so I would certainly turn that off for any half-active project. I prefer checking watchlists regularly. One can check foreign notifications more seldom, but I think that requires having them turned on only on some seldom visited wiki (I have that configuration). I think the indentation issue is minor, not worth any radical solutions. --LPfi (talk) 13:30, 26 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've gotten out of the discussion about the Esperanto phrasebook because it's gone so far. In my opinion, Esperanto should have been deleted, but it's gotten pointless to discuss the phrasebook because the discussion has lasted for almost a month now and nothing's been done. All that's happened is that Wikivoyagers have been distracted from actually contributing to articles and have instead just debated endlessly over things that don't matter very much. I don't really mind if we keep or delete the phrasebook now, the argument's gone on so long. I think it should just end. Somehow.

The recent, almost infinite discussion about Genesis 1:3 beats them all. I have my own opinion about this, but I'm not going to share it because it'll just make the debate go on even longer and create more arguments. Once again, it's not important whether the Genesis quote is there or not - definitely not important enough to spend, according to wordcounter.net, more than 3000 words and almost 20,000 characters arguing over it. Can't we just move on to things that need to be done, like contributing to articles, voting on DotMs, and so on? Wikivoyage's editing group is too small to just argue over minor issues. And if you want to get into discussion about Bible verses, first think of "A house divided against itself cannot stand." (Mark 3) Selfie City (talk) 04:19, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any evidence that these discussions have resulted in less time or effectiveness in editing articles? Respectfully, I think that the biggest waste of time is to argue people are wasting time discussing things, when they're actually related to policy (I would make an exception for some of the debates at Talk:United States of America)... Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:23, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems obvious to me that time spent on pointless discussions can't be spent more usefully on improving or copy editing articles, @ Ikan Kekek. Don't understand me wrong, I do see the value of Talk page discussions or the Travellers' pub, but it's not efficient to spend thousands of words discussing each little detail since there is a nearly infinite number of such discussion material on Wikivoyage! Talk:United States of America seems a good example, the majority of the issues there are so insignificant that they fall under Wikivoyage:Plunge_forward and should be edited straight away without discussion at all. ArticCynda (talk) 09:37, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My take on discussions there is different, but I won't bore you with it. My feeling is that this thread should be at the vfd discussion about the Esperanto phrasebook, not here, where guess what? We're wasting time discussing it! Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:04, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I much rather have people air out their grievances and have discussions than it being kept bottled in until someone snaps (or leaves). Of course the discussions on minutiae on the USA article have at times gotten out of hand, but that's just the US for ya. What I am amazed at is that this here site has during my tenure never once had a Middle East meltdown. Knock on wood. Hobbitschuster (talk) 11:56, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘First, I don't think we're talking about people's grievances, exactly. The Genesis 1:3 debate began as an issue of what Wikivoyage wouldn't allow up, I think. Then it became a debate over whether we could include Biblical quotes and whether or not it would offend anyone. As it turned out, more than 3000 words were spent arguing over 11 words of text. What if everyone contributed 3000 words to articles? Now, that would actually improve the website.

Also, the amount of discussion I have started here already shows where the contributions are going. The belief that we should just increase the number of Wikivoyagers before contributing articles has dominated Wikivoyage for a few years now, and all that's happened is that people have argued more and more about policies, phrasebooks, quotes, etc., and done less and less contributing to real articles. Let me tell you all something: it doesn't really matter whether there's a quote at the top of the Electrical systems travel topic page or not. Quotes don't do any harm, but they're not really useful either. What is useful is writing another "star" article (which we haven't done in ages) or even just writing articles up to usable and guide status. Try exploring the Wikivoyage site. How many outline articles can you find? Plenty. The travelers' pub seems far from empty, though. Selfie City (talk) 13:32, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

While it may be true that quotes are inessential, it is also true that they help to provide an otherwise dry article with just a bit more colour. After all, one of WV's policies is to encourage lively writing, and having a humorous but relevant quote helps us attain that. It's just unfortunate that things have become so politically charged these days that seemingly anything can potentially offend someone. The dog2 (talk) 16:11, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Selfie City, I like to think in terms of every argument we have now serves to prevent an argument (or multiple arguments) in the future. Clear policies and precedents make it easier to get along here, and it's through discussions like the ones for the Esperanto phrasebook and the Genesis quote, as tedious as they may seem in the moment, that we attain that clarity. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:37, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I rather agree with this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:58, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

But if we only didn't need to have the debates in the first place... Selfie City (talk) 23:25, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think there's a difference between long-winded discussions that create or change policy (which can be applied to many articles) and those that change a few words in an article. The latter definitely seems like a waste of time. Gizza ^(roam) 23:43, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, in the case of the quote from Genesis in Electrical systems, we had (have?) the opportunity to take one user's concerns about the implications of affirming the removal of the quote (as opposed to reverting it) and use it to establish a precedent in a broader sense of how much consideration we want to give to an oversensitive editor who is offended by something innocuous. I think a lot of people in the discussion missed that point. The precedent that discussion sets can either make it easier or more difficult to argue against edits made by future oversensitive editors who may be unduly offended by something more important to the content of an article than an easily replaceable throwaway quote. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:55, 30 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You don't agree that we can have different standards for more important content? I would strongly assert that we can and should. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:06, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘For important discussions, if they really are important, there's a reason for discussion. However, the Esperanto phrasebook is on the border-line of that "important", and the debate over the Genesis 1:3 quote is definitely not within the "important" category. If we were discussing removing every single ideological/religious/belief system quote, that would be different. But the debate over Genesis 1:3 hasn't reached that stage yet. I simply think there are more important issues on Wikivoyage than either Esperanto or whether or not we have a quote on a particular page. Selfie City (talk) 00:15, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Arguing at length that we should spend less time arguing about unimportant issues is really a waste of time, but arguing about the limits of policy and of this travel guide is not a waste of time. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:24, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my hope was that this would stop people from arguing, but it's actually done just the opposite. Selfie City (talk) 00:36, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your frustration, but I think you'll find that trying to direct others' work in a voluntary project doesn't ever work. People argue about things that they think are important. If I see a big argument over something I don't think is important, I find it best just to move along and go back to creating new content or improving existing content. Occasionally I'll try to mediate, but if the argument has gone on too long, I probably can't really help. This is the nature of collaborative projects. Ground Zero (talk) 00:50, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The reason why this became a policy discussion is because the user who proposed the change to the Electrical systems article went on to change the Biblical quote in the Clothes article, and cited in his comments that it was agreed upon here. The fact is, an agreement was only reached for the first change. The second change wasn't even discussed, and the user did mention in one of his comments that he's offended by having a Biblical quote in a secular article because he is an atheist. I personally think the Biblical quote that was replaced is nicer than the one currently on the page (and I am not a Christian), and I really don't think it should have been changed just like that on the basis of him being offended. I'm actually tempted to revert that particular edit, but I haven't because I am waiting to see if we can get any sort of consensus on this. We most certainly need to establish proper policy guidelines for this so we can avoid the need to have such debates in the future. I know this is a small issue and not important for that particular article, but as far as policy goes, how far do we want to go to accommodate everyone's different sensitivities? If the article was written in a bigoted way, that's another thing, but if we decide that offending someone is the benchmark for requiring changes to be made to an article, some nationalist can easily insist that we don't write anything negative about his/her country because he/she is offended by that. And no, this is not far-fetched; I have actually run into such issues with Korean nationalists on Wikipedia, because they felt offended by the notion that Korean culture was influenced by Chinese culture. Do we really want to go that far? The dog2 (talk) 01:50, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was (grudgingly) willing to entertain the idea that something about the "let there be light" quote might have stuck in the user's craw, and that if we indulged him on that one individual edit he would move on to other activities. A second edit on the same basis of oversensitivity or phony outrage represents a pattern that needs to be nipped in the bud. I reverted the second edit on that basis and am tempted to go back to Electrical systems and revert that one too. This is precisely, precisely, what I was talking about in terms of setting the wrong precedent. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 02:55, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just said my piece there. In no way would I countenance replacing that beautiful, directly relevant Biblical passage with his suggested prosaic quote. This is no more a place for an atheistic crusade against all Biblical language than it is for a crusade by any religion against coverage of other religions. Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ We don't need to change everything that someone somewhere feels offended by. You, me, anyone could feel offended by anything, which leads to political correctness justified censorship, and needlessly long debates. If people feel offended by biblical quotes then it's up to them to lighten up a bit, rather than forcing the entire travel guide to be changed to make it comply to their narrow view of the world. And preferences aside, it's a fact that mythology and superstition have had a tremendous influence on every culture, and meeting other cultures is one of the most important reasons we travel, isn't it? So whoever feels offended by a few phrases from mythological literature, should probably not travel at all, since they are likely to be offended by many of the See attractions of almost any destination: religious architecture, art in museums, or even street names! Hence, why would a travel guide need to be changed and endlessly debated about by people who are too immature to travel in the first place? ArticCynda (talk) 11:08, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I was willing to humor him in one article, but no more. If he's triggered by all Biblical references, there's a hell of a lot of other literature he can never read, which is probably too bad but not my business. However, he has no right to censor this site to his individual preferences. Ikan Kekek (talk) 11:14, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That was precisely what I was getting at. I was reluctant to explicitly say this because I didn't want to open a can of worms given the current political climate, but my view is that if all it takes for a quote to offend you is the fact that it comes from a particular holy book, you're being oversensitive and need to learn to chill. The world does not revolve around any single person, and neither should WV. I'm glad that we were able to let commonsense prevail here and set the right precedent. The dog2 (talk) 13:27, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are as many different political climates as there are countries on the planet, so we can't reasonably make Wikivoyage cope with any particular political/religious/social belief out there. Political correctness is hopefully just another phase/trend that will pass again, just like countless others have before it, and countless others will in the future. If we keep adapting our content to whatever phase/trend is 'in' then we never get forward, which was exactly Selfie Citys concern. ArticCynda (talk) 14:52, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Andre, please don't revert the change at Electrical systems. I think that the new quotation is more relevant. Also, thank you for changing Clothing. I agree with you that the older quotation is better (more relevant) than the new substitute. It seems to me that a traveler is more likely to encounter the "nothing to wear" problem than the situation in which he's wearing a sweater because his mother is cold. If someone finds a specifically travel-related quotation, then that might be even better, but when the choice is between these two, I prefer the older one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The continued tunnel vision on the Clothing/Electrical systems issue is dismaying to say the least. The argument ceased long ago to be about which quote is better, if indeed it ever was. This is about how much we're willing to cater to the censorious crusades of users who are easily triggered and/or given to feigning outrage in order to burnish their own "progressive" bona fides. Let's look at this in the long term. I think that if this discussion is used as precedent in a future discussion, it's far more likely to be employed for or against the idea of catering to oversensitive users than for any other purpose, and I think the importance of not censoring Wikivoyage far supersedes that of having the best incidental quotes in our articles. In other words, our Electrical systems article will not be substantially worse off in the long run if we have "Let there be light" as the quote rather than the Carlin one, but Wikivoyage as a whole will be substantially worse off in the long run if we allow a culture to develop where editors have to walk on eggshells to avoid inadvertently hurting the feelings of every imaginable class of perpetually offended user. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 15:56, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given this controversy, I was wondering if we should perhaps add "Avoiding every possible offence" or something similar to our list of non-goals. Of course, we will not write our articles in an intentionally offensive and bigoted way, but with that being said, we also need to be reasonable and we can't cater to the whims of anyone who decides to be oversensitive over innocuous content, or is just trying to come up with new reasons to get offended. I think having this explicitly stated will make it easier for us to deal with similar issues in the future. The dog2 (talk) 20:40, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, articles should not be written to intentionally offend or insult groups or ideas, but banning everything that could potentially be offensive is also ridiculous. Write articles in a way that most readers would enjoy. The few that still feel offended are free to make a fork of Wikivoyage and start their own Travel Guide for Oversensitive Individuals^TM . ArticCynda (talk) 08:52, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How do I make a Travel Brochure in multilanguage

The good news is that all text in any language version of WV is under a Creative Commons license that allows re-use, provided you comply with the license terms; the most important are giving attribution to the source & licensing your work the same way. See Wikivoyage:Copyleft for details. Photos & maps from WM Commons are also under open licenses, but you have to check each one since details may vary. Open Streetmap also has an open license, but I have no idea of details.

As for what tools to use to create a brochure, how to format one in an appealing way & so on, those questions are outside the scope of a travel guide. It is possible some people here will have suggestions, but I haven't a clue. Pashley (talk)

What does your participation on the Wikimedia projects look like? Do you edit articles? Upload files? Patrol vandalism? Translate articles? Translate interface messages? Do you organize people, online or offline? Do you train new editors, or new trainers? Do you write code?

There are many different ways to contribute to Wikimedia – more than you would expect just from reading Wikipedia articles. Over the past several years, volunteers have developed technical tools that help Wikimedians improve content, patrol vandalism, and perform many other tasks. They make it possible to do what the wiki software alone cannot accomplish. Without these tools, many of our projects would slow down to a crawl.

I am very happy to announce a new project called Toolhub which seeks to create a searchable index of these tools in all languages. We are building this tool catalog based on what our communities need. If you would like to help, please take a look at m:Toolhub and review the question at the top of the page. You can also leave feedback in any language on the talkpage. You can also email me private feedback. Harej (WMF) (talk) 00:23, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OsmAnd is a popular offline GPS maps app for Android. Version 3.0 has just been released, and guess what's the biggest new feature? Wikivoyage! Half of the changelog is about Wikivoyage (in the app the feature is called "Travel" though lol):

https://osmand.net/blog?id=osmand-3-0-released

I have not tested it yet (busy at the moment) but it sounds promising. I wonder whether it reuses data from my pet project https://github.com/baturin/wikivoyage-listings or not. Cheers! Syced (talk) 06:02, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, this is amazing and great work! I only know about one other option - kiwix (mediawiki offline browser). But the GPS stuff is broken there for a year+ now, and there's no way(?) to show the maps of the listings. This all seems to work nicely in OsmAnd... Now if only they improved the map rendering engine to be less sluggish :-) Andree.sk (talk) 07:50, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is very interesting. Great to have an app promoting Wikivoyage. Quite a bit of downloading to do, particularly if you travel a lot. Not sure how much sim card this could take up but has the advantage of working in those locations where there is no cell signal. The standard map has a good deal of detailed information, at least in the areas I briefly tested. As far as I can work out the Wikivoyage POIs only appear on the map once you view an article, or is there another method? The key advantage, which our own in article map on mobile phone does not do (and thus a reason why we will never be a popular site), it show your current location so you can see what POIs are nearby.--Traveler100 (talk) 07:53, 3 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Andree.sk, Their rendering engine improved a lot since one of their latest releases! Give it a try, if you haven't yet. I was positively surprised. It is the only app I ever bought, by the way. --Renek78 (talk) 09:31, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I'm following the updates (when I use GPS)... But compare it e.g. to maps.me, if you want to know how state-of-art rendering should work :-) Granted, they don't render to such details, nor do they allow styling etc. So I use maps.me for car stuff mostly, and osmand for walking... Andree.sk (talk) 19:28, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting approach to integrating OSM and WikiVoyage, if only OsmAnd wouldn't have severely restrictive download policy of seven-ish datasets, I'd use it more... ArticCynda (talk) 16:43, 4 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On that matter a little help:

1. If you use one of the two "multi-user" storage places under "Setting" in OsmAnd, you can reset the app's data (under Settings (Android) >> Apps) without deleting the maps, and you will get another 7 maps.
2. Maps can be simply shared with other people if you know where to find them. (Android/obb/net.osmand.plus or Android/data/net.osmand.plus or Android/data/net.osmand)
3. There is a free full version of OsmAnd in f-Droid available. Get f-Droid and you problems are gone.
4. If you have iOS, you decided to be on the commercial side of life, so spend some god-dam money on the App. ;-)

Cheers Ceever (talk) 15:18, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand correctly, only listings with a Wikidata attribute are used. That's another argument for linking to Wikidata :-) Also, you have to enable the layer in "Configure map > POI Overlay > Tourism" Syced (talk) 09:35, 5 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have been noticing that the PDF functionality, the printing view, and the WP, WC, and WD links are in a quite unfortunate location and do not really get the attention needed or are overseen by the user, even though very relevant. Also, they kind of fall together with links relevant for editors, what makes them more advanced and hard to find.

Would we maybe be interested moving them to a more visible location where they can be of real use for the user? See my proposal: https://s33.postimg.cc/pe7g6pl33/proposal.png (upper right corner)

What do you think? Of course the design is worth improvement. Here I am just asking for a general opinion on the relocation and a more effective place for the general user.

Cheers Ceever (talk) 16:01, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Although a neat looking proposal, I have my doubts about the usefulness of such a redesign because I wonder how often the Print to PDF function is actually used nowadays. As for WC, WP and WD, I'd rather see all relevant information to the traveler integrated into WV articles rather than linking to them. Boldly said, if there is a need to link to WP, then the WV article is incomplete. But that's just my opinion, of course. ArticCynda (talk) 10:29, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think the links are important. Doubling the information of Wikipedia would be an enormous project for very little gain, and there is no reason for us to have a dozen images for every church at the destination. There is another reason we should not add the proposed buttons: the current placement is the same as on Wikipedia, which is well-known by lots of people. Moving them away would make these people not find them, while having them in two locations might get people click on both. Web pages with lots of links, some of which lead to the same information, is very frustrating when you are looking for something that is not easily find (and possibly missing – it is important to be able to conclude that). --LPfi (talk) 14:09, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Began with the discussion "Theocracies and monarchies"

Yes, Granger, and both can go. By the way, what about the UK National Parks list? I started on the pictures of scenic areas, and while on Wikimedia Commons accidentally ran into an inappropriate image, which is why I suddenly stopped contributing to the images on the list. Does Commons have any sort of filter for users or anything? Or is there any other way of searching independent files? The worst area for this seems to be Commons categories, so the best thing I've thought of so far is just avoiding the Commons categories. Selfie City (talk) 23:42, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's a hazard of working on these projects, and especially of looking for images on Commons. There's no built-in filter on Commons as far as I know, but the information at w:Help:Options to hide an image may be able to help. —Granger (talk · contribs) 23:51, 12 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but unfortunately the filter didn't work on Wikivoyage, and I assume it wouldn't work on Commons. But you gave me an idea: I could go to the Wikipedia page for each place, for example, Ben Nevis, and get the image(s) from there. And on Wikipedia, I wouldn't immediately see the image because I've installed the filter that helps block them; then I can go to edit history and make sure no suspicious users have been making edits for getting the image. Thanks for giving me an idea and helping me with this. Selfie City (talk) 00:04, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Selfie City, this is about Commons, right? You could broach the subject of a filter at the Village Pump on Commons. But the problem, as you may know, is that scripts on Commons are poorly maintained, with several functions (e.g., Valued Image sets) abandoned as a result. I think it would be uncommon to see anything obscene in the galleries for the categories for destinations, though. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:32, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, you're describing pretty much exactly what happened. Selfie City (talk) 00:37, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's uncommon, though. Now, if only the searches for Featured Picture, Quality Image and Valued Image ever worked anymore....But really, these are things to discuss on Commons, not here. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:05, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Well, I think I've got more of a solution now. Thanks for your help. Selfie City (talk) 01:13, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should not start a discussion on Commons without checking the previous ones. A majority on Commons was very decidedly against the proposed filters, and this is a can of worms. There is no way to make the filters work in a reliably enough way for Commons: too easy to get false positives, no way to classify images sensibly. On the other hand, I have been working quite much on Commons and have yet to have an obscene image pop up on me, so really, you did have bad luck. --LPfi (talk) 05:00, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Filters rarely (if ever) work properly, and its the first step towards censorship. So I don't see any advantages of implementing filters. What exactly is the problem, anyway? ArticCynda (talk) 09:27, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that they generally fall into a few categories:

• People see stuff that they don't want to see (e.g., an image that reminds you of a traumatic experience).
• People see stuff that others don't want them to (e.g., an image that can get you in trouble with your school/employer/internet cafe).
• People see stuff that is surprising/inappropriate to the context (e.g., looking for a photo of a vegetable and being shown pornography instead).

Contributors generally agree that out-of-place results are "our problem", and that those should be fixed, regardless of whether the image is frequently considered offensive or frequently considered innocuous. That is, if you're looking for a photo of a vegetable, then you shouldn't see pornography, but you also shouldn't see sunsets or kittens or rainbows. Some contributors don't want to be associated with addressing the other two problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:35, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

These are valid concerns, but implementing filters will probably do more harm than good I think. For instance, following your example, consider a scenario in which your best friend died in your arms after getting hit by a bus in Prague. This is without a doubt a traumatic experience that benefits from such a filter, but where would you draw the line? Remove all content related to bus transport in Prague, buses in general, remove all references to Prague, or even remove anything related to Czech Republic? This would depend on the circumstances and personal preferences of each individual, and both are very hard to implement in rule sets for filters. But even if it worked, how would you prevent the filter from censoring the Berlin article because it mentions that Flixbus operates daily bus lines between Berlin and Prague? I'm not a software engineer, but it appears to me that such issues would be technologically immensively complex due to the nearly infinite variety of possible traumas, combinations of traumas, and so on. ArticCynda (talk) 20:25, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not surprised that you have mentioned this sort of highly personal, unpredictable case. I believe that the basic argument that perfection is impossible has been popular among contributors who didn't want to do something that might be helpful in the vast majority of cases (e.g., the porn collection that features a long-time Wikimedian, which almost no readers want to be surprised by, and which I'd bet that even fewer long-time editors want to see at all, ever). WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is an example you suggested in your previous post — traumatic experience. Isn't a trauma by definition a highly personal, unpredicatable case?

As for the porn issue, it's 2018 now, not 1918 anymore. It's time to stop being offended by nudity and sex. ArticCynda (talk) 07:19, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Some traumatic experiences aren't that personal (e.g., images depicting rape, for the millions of rape victims in the world; images of the Twin Towers collapsing, for New Yorkers of a certain generation). And the point isn't "stop being offended"; it's that most people want to find certain kinds of images (most commonly: sexual, religious, violent, disgusting) when they're looking for them, but not to get surprised by those images when they're not looking for them. Even the most enthusiastic consumers of porn and sex-positive imagery don't always want those images to turn up when they're engaged in unrelated tasks. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:38, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No one is disputing the things you mentioned are traumatic to specific groups of people, the problem is rather that it would be very difficult — if not impossible — to design image filters that block images a certain individual could experience as traumatic due to the very long list of potentially traumatic things in the world. So based on which criteria would you configure filters? In your Twin Tower example, you could argue that such images should/could be blocked for New York IP addresses, but what about New Yorkers living abroad? And what about New Yorkers living around ground zero who choose to face their history instead of censoring it away? Personally I'm not upset by Twin Tower images at all so I wouldn't want them to be censored, so where would you draw the line for a Twin Tower image filter? The same question/issue arises for every other situation, it's an endless debate. ArticCynda (talk) 12:36, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The most popular approach was to have a filtering system available (which we don't now), and then let people manually opt-in if (and only if) they individually choose to do so. The only thing that would matter is what the individual chose, so questions of geolocation, etc., are irrelevant. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:00, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So based on which rule(s) would such filter(s) operate? How would it/they identify inappropriate images for certain users then? That is the most important issue, and still has not been answered. ArticCynda (talk) 08:43, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I don't think Wikivoyage is the right place for this discussion. —Granger (talk · contribs) 12:04, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I was about to say the same thing. This is a Commons issue. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 12:41, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And it was discussed at length at Commons. I think there are few points that were not considered carefully, with solutions proposed and found troublesome. Read enough of those threads to find your solutions to the problems and the criticism of those solution. --LPfi (talk) 14:26, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Dear all, please, I beg you to really put some additional effort into verifying (OpenStreetMap, Google Maps) that the GPS information copied from Wikidata is correct.

I see many listings being updated with the Wikidata code and consequently the GPS information being copied into Wikivoyage. E.g. https://en.wikivoyage.org/w/index.php?title=Aqaba&type=revision&diff=3529501&oldid=3457529

However, the GPS information on Wikidata, IMHO, is far from correct and of rather low quality. I actually trust Wikivoyage more to have more accurate GPS information. The problem is not using Wikidata, which in the future might correct the false GPS information. The sad thing is that we are deleting high quality information from Wikivoyage this way, instead of spreading it.

Therefore, in case you find the Wikidata GPS information to be incorrect, please head over to the relevant item and correct the GPS coordinates on Wikidata using "English Wikivoyage" as a reference.

Please, help to keep up the good data quality on Wikivoyage.

Many thanks, Ceever (talk) 21:39, 10 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it is unfortunate that the listing editor only gives the option of updating all the fields using the Wikidata values, not just the empty ones. With large venues Wikivoyage may deliberately have different co-ordinates from Wikipedia - We may want to show where the entrance or ticket office is, and WP may want to show somewhere in the centre of the site. AlasdairW (talk) 23:21, 10 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with AlasdairW. Is it possible to change the listing editor so that the "Update shared fields using values from Wikidata" button will only update empty fields? —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:04, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, the marker/listing templates now do exactly this (automagically adds location/images from wikidata, if specified; doesn't override)... If we added also wikipedia/url autofetching, the 'update from wikidata' button would become obsolete. Andree.sk (talk) 06:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Andree.sk, would it be technologically feasible to have a single click update button for Wikidata? I've made it a habit to fill in the Wikidata field of any attraction I add or edit, and noticed a lot of Wikidata records indeed have inaccurate coordinate information. I believe it wouldn't be a bad idea if the data flow could be bidirectional. ArticCynda (talk) 07:41, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I guess anything is possible in the end, but I'm not sure wikidatians would like WV "autooverriding" their database. Who's to say WV coords are better than the ones imported from WP? I guess if we don't like the WD coords and they are somewhat correct (aka - are better the coords of center of the building, or of its entrance?), we should simply override in WV. Otherwise I'm sure WP:WV edit wars will ensue :) If the WD coords are completely off, like in this case, we should fix WD - it would also help fellows from DE/FR/... WV branches. Andree.sk (talk) 08:12, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Non-overriding updates would be a good place to start.

In the fairly rare case of desired differences (e.g., venue center vs entrance), I think that Wikidata can support multiple values, with qualifiers and rankings to identify why there are more than one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

An extreme example is w:Caledonian Canal which runs for 60 miles from Fort Augustus to the outskirts of Fort William, and has listings in both, with the lat/longs being good locations to see the canal if you are in that town. The WD lat/long is 5 miles from Fort August. (The Fort William listing could be changed to be specific to a set of locks there.) AlasdairW (talk) 22:24, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn't surprise me at all. When Wikidata was introduced it was noted that this type of thing could happen very easilty because of multiple input sources and appears to prove Wikidata to be a tiny bit less reliable than one would have hoped. Double checking would be a good practise to follow. -- Matroc (talk) 08:24, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And it gives credence to my earlier warning to be wary of too much integration with, and ceding too much control over our content to, an unrelated WMF project that doesn't necessarily share (or even have much familiarity with) our goals. I recently had to remove several Wikidata values from the Buffalo article because it made no sense to associate a specific set of geo coordinates to (in two cases) a local restaurant chain with multiple locations and (in the remaining case) an annual event whose venue changes every year. Until these issues get ironed out, I propose a moratorium on any further addition of Wikidata values to local listings. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:32, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think stopping adding is a little rash, but checking before changing and after adding I totally agree with. Even better fix the wikidata, which I have done a number of times. Particularly when totally wrong. --Traveler100 (talk) 18:14, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

👍 Ceever (talk) 18:33, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Доверяй, но проверяй --Traveler100 (talk) 18:44, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't go as far as advocating a moratorium on adding Wikidata links, but would rather propose we make an effort to correct Wikidata in the process where necessary. That way, both WMF projects enjoy the benefits. ArticCynda (talk) 18:46, 13 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can tell you people one thing; the coordinates given for Wildwood State Park in Wading River, New York are way off the coast of Long Island Sound(https://www.google.com/maps/dir/40.9636612,-72.8107658/41,-72.8/@40.9672569,-72.9050227,11250m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!4m1!3e2?hl=en ), instead of the correct location, which should show up on that google map. ----DanTD (talk) 20:46, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Takes only a few seconds to correct, so I did! ArticCynda (talk) 07:28, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

👍 Andree.sk (talk) 09:22, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One caveat to this: I've noticed that Google Maps gives me the GPS coordinates of the centre of the map instead of the GPS coordinates of the pointer that I searched for. I've had to move the location slightly off the map and then search for it in order to get even semi-reliable numbers that way. --Robkelk (talk) 16:01, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Wikidata - like Wikivoyage - is a wiki. If you see something wrong, fix it! Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:46, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Category:Articles Geo different to Wikidata, regions not important but there a a good number of cities were either Wikidata coordinate is wrong or the Geo entry on Wikivoyage is wrong, or a little bit off. --Traveler100 (talk) 19:01, 27 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I had to manually update just about every single set of GPS coordinates (Not a long list) I got from Wikidata and Wikipedia's sets - sometimes the difference was a matter of blocks, sometimes the difference was a bit more than that. I will see if I can poke my nose into the source to see if I can help there. L. Challenger (talk) 10:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The monthly metrics presentation is going on right now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=otAX58IZ6KA The first presentation (after some quick notes) is about the map internationalization project. This is the result of six months of dev work that basically happened because the Wikivoyage core community banded together to make it #1 for the m:2017 Community Wishlist Survey. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 28 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi!

I'm Tar Lócesilion, a Polish Wikipedia admin and a member of Wikimedia Polska. Last year, I worked for Wikimedia Foundation as a liaison between communities and the Movement Strategy core team. My task was to ensure that all online communities were aware of the movement-wide strategy discussion. This year, my task similar. Phase II of the strategy process was launched in April. Currently, future Working Groups members are being selected, and related pages on Meta-Wiki are being designed.

I’d like to learn what questions concerning the strategy process would you like to be answered on the FAQ page? Please answer here, on my talk page, or on a dedicated talk page on Meta-Wiki. Thanks!

If you have any questions or concerns, please, do ask!

Thanks, SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 18:29, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any way to fix this in order to make it accurate again? (I am afraid it hasn't been completely accurate for a awhile). ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 12:24, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'll file a Phabricator task to request that someone look at it. If anyone else knows of this problem at other wikis, please ping me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:30, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! ויקיג'אנקי (talk) 20:57, 31 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What do we know about WV readers, how do we know it, and what more ought we to know?

In editing, I form an idea of what the traveller might find helpful; other contributors then modify or comment, but I lack broader reader feedback and don’t know how to get it. In “Talk” pages there's throwaway mention of (for example) page-traffic, but I don’t know where to see this, or if it’s open to view, or what analysis there might be of what those numbers mean. Do folk seek out WV or chance upon it, and how likely are they to come back? Which other methods has WV used to understand its actual and potential audience? Has it done any survey outreach, has any impartial agency rated WV along with other web and printed travel guides?

If there are ready answers to these, then the task is to collate them into an accessible place, as easily found as the pub. The work-up for any major project should explicitly state how it addresses the view “out the window”. If there are no such answers, then WV has a strategic blind spot, and should encourage proposals to remedy it. Grahamsands (talk) 10:58, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For any page you can see how many views it has been getting recently. From the page select the "View History" tab, then select "Page view statistics". This should then display a bar chart of activity in he last 20 days - I usually then change to 90 days using the options on the left of the page. (For example for Hartlepool which we have both edited recently: https://tools.wmflabs.org/pageviews/?project=en.wikivoyage.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-90&pages=Hartlepool.) I would take the figures "with a pinch of salt", as I suspect that there is some under reporting. The same method works on Wikipedia, and in other languages. AlasdairW (talk) 21:46, 1 August 2018 (UTC)