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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 13:07, 11 February 2020 (UTC)Reply

Anyone know what this is/ how to fix this statement appearing throughout the "Multiple Presidents" and "Other Presidents" sections instead of attraction names and phone numbers? JakeOregon (talk) 22:57, 4 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Not sure what caused it. I purged the page (by clicking the "Edit source" button and then saving the page with no edits), and that seems to have solved the problem, at least for now. —Granger (talk · contribs) 00:49, 5 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

As many of you may have gotten the news, Trump successfully brokered a peace deal between the UAE and Israel, and both countries are now going to establish diplomatic relations. Should we add this to his blurb? I would say it's certainly a significant foreign policy achievement. The dog2 (talk) 22:02, 13 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

His blurb doesn't list any of his policy accomplishments or any of his scandals. Why pick just this one accomplishment? It doesn't actually affect Americans materially, unlike changes to medical insurance, tax cuts, trade disputes with China and Canada and Mexico, what he has done/not done about the covid pandemic, to mention a very, very few. Starting to list those would change this from a travel article about presidents to an article about the Trump presidency. I think Wikipedia would be a better place for an article like that. Ground Zero (talk) 22:23, 13 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

This should not be included in the blurb. —Granger (talk · contribs) 22:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

What others said. Very minor accomplishment. Ikan Kekek (talk) 03:07, 14 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, I didn't notice this page was not supposed to be edited without discussion. Some proposed edits:

-Bill Clinton's blurb says he was not impeached. This is just factually incorrect. It's common knowledge that he was impeached and easily verifiable. He was impeached but not removed from office. His blurb needs to say that.

On Trump's blurb, I think this sounds less biased:

Donald Trump, 2017-present — A billionaire businessman and television personality who is the first president to have held no prior elected or military office and the second president to have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. His campaign platform included a Mexican border wall to reduce immigration from Latin America, international trade restrictions and fairer trade agreements, particularly with China, and a promise to bring heavy industry and coal mining jobs back to the U.S. He became the third president to be impeached by the House of Representatives but not convicted and removed from office by the Senate. As of May 2020, he is the oldest person to assume the office."

The basic changes are adding the Hollywood Walk of Fame trivia (since it's mentioned in Reagan's), attempted to include his pushback against China which has become more important in the past couple years of his presidency, and remove irrelevant "white nationalist" and "climate change denial" comments. Attempting to connect him to white nationalists (who apparently have endorsed Joe Biden in the upcoming election) is purely political. "Climate change denial" is always silly. His actual record in what he has said about the topic is all over the place. He has both called it a hoax and a "serious issue". Either way, it wasn't an issue that particularly moved American voters. His stance on climate change is not what got him elected (nor do I imagine voters who didn't vote for him would have if he had only said he cared about this topic). No, the core policy issues that made people want to vote for or against him were those mentioned: The wall/stricter immigration, and maintaining or reestablishing the US as a world power with trade agreements and bringing production and manufacturing back (and then the non-policy factor of his humor, brashness, and overall demeanor/personality). I know as the current president, people have the strongest opinions about him, but it reads a bit biased. It's a short blurb. Most of the presidents give minimal trivia with little to no information on their political stances on anything. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 12:24, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think the changes are mostly good, though "fairer trade" is arguable. I would remove "and fairer trade agreements" altogether. I think the blurb says he was "unsuccessfully impeached" or something very similar to that, which is half true. I think your description of Clinton's impeachment is more accurate. Also agreed that "climate change denial" has proven irrelevant to the actions of his presidency, as climate has had little relevance to his important executive orders and other decisions. Not sure what to say about "white nationalists," but I don't think we can claim that he brought about the rise of white nationalism, with the racial connotations included, which has long been present in the U.S. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 12:58, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Shouldn't the blurb in some way say he has been controversial? Having been impeached shows that, but there is no hint on the reasons. The "fairer trade agreements" is over the top, but for me it seems his followers would agree to everything there, nodding with a content smile. –LPfi (talk) 13:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Because the sentence started with "his campaign platform", the addition of "fairer trade" is not meant as a claim of achievement; just that it is something that he talks/talked about. I'm okay with removing it, though. It may have become more of a talking point after his election than during the campaign... It's easy for these things to run together in one's memory, especially with a campaign happening in the present. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Maybe the bigger problem here is that the blurb is too focused on his original campaign platform and not focused enough on his accomplishments as president. How about replacing the "campaign platform" sentence with something like

His "America First" stance has involved restricting immigration and international trade, and withdrawing the United States from international agreements; signature policies include a Mexican border wall and a trade war with China.

—Granger (talk · contribs) 13:28, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Agreed, and definitely an improvement. We first wrote this during the mid-first term of his presidency, so there wasn't so much we could say about actual events. That has since changed and the paragraph should probably change accordingly. --Comment by Selfie City (talk | contributions) 13:30, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I like Granger's blurb to replace everything in the "his campaign platform..." part. It's short and concise and avoids delving into political issues which may always be messy, but are especially so with sitting presidents. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:34, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Let's rewrite this at the end of January 2021... Hobbitschuster (talk) 13:46, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

No argument with revising Trump's blurb. It's a fool's errand to try to summarize a president's legacy when they're still in office (let alone when they'd just taken office, which is roughly when the text in the blurb was written). However, Bill Clinton's blurb does not say he was not impeached. He was impeached, and given that the desired outcome of impeachment is to remove a elected official from office, the impeachment was unsuccessful. We want to keep the blurbs short, and "unsuccessfully impeached" says the same thing as "impeached but not removed from office" in four fewer words. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 14:23, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

When I read "Unsuccessfully impeached", I assume the impeachment itself was unsuccessful, but the impeachment was successful. He was impeached. The removal from office was unsuccessful (He was acquitted). That impeachment is required for the removal but it is not nullified if the removal is unsuccessful. Nancy Pelosi made a big to-do about the success of the impeachment as a blemish on the administration in spite of non-removal during the most recent impeachment. Trump's sentence on impeachment is very clear. To me, Clinton's doesn't read as well. Upon looking, "unsuccessfully impeached" is also the phrase used in Jackson's impeachment. If that is really preferable or the "right way" (admittedly impeachments aren't something I read much about) to describe a successful impeachment but unsuccessful removal, I guess Trump's is the one that should be changed, but I prefer the way his is written. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 15:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

This is all unnecessary hair-splitting. "Unsuccessfully impeached" may not be correct in the nitpicky technical sense, but as a space-saving mechanism, it's an acceptable substitute for impeachment-plus-failure-to-remove-from-office. The other definition - where a bill calling for the opening of an impeachment inquiry is introduced in Congress but fails to pass - is a common enough occurrence that it wouldn't even rate a mention in one of these blurbs. That happened to both George W. Bush and Barack Obama, IIRC. The American presidency is the most prominent and powerful office in the world, and we can expect our readers to come to the article with some preexisting knowledge of recent American presidential history even if they don't live in the U.S. The business with Bill Clinton happened recently enough that the fact that he wasn't forcibly removed from office is Captain Obvious. Maybe the same isn't true for Andrew Johnson, but in the end who really cares? Even if you buy that there's ambiguity between "not impeached" and "unsuccessfully impeached" (I don't), that still doesn't affect the logistics of visiting the POIs in his section. Anyone who's enough of an Andrew Johnson buff to care about that fine distinction probably already knows what really happened anyway - it's by far the thing he's most well known for historically - or will be set straight by the tour guides at the historic site or museum/library or wherever they go. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

OK, what is the current proposal on what the entire Trump blurb should look like? Please post it. As for actions and inaction helping to accelerate global warming being irrelevant, pay attention to what's currently happening in California and the Gulf States. I really don't want to be having to argue against fact-denial in talk page discussions on this site. Wikivoyage is not bound to be scientifically objective like Wikipedia (NPOV), but pretending that deliberately worsening global warming with the aid of fact-denial is irrelevant is not being fair. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

People can argue all day about whether or not Trump is a white nationalist, and I don't want to have that argument here. But what is certain is that Steve Bannon, who is unquestionably a white nationalist, was part of his campaign staff, and in the initial phase was part of his cabinet. Also, prominent white nationalists like Richard Spencer and David Duke endorsed him. So I don't think it's unfair to mention the coincidence between Trump's presidency and white nationalism. At least according to the news, white nationalist terrorism seems to have increased since Trump assumed office. The dog2 (talk) 02:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think impeachment needs to be explained for the benefit of non-American readers. Despite having lived through the Clinton impeachment, and I suppose the attempted impeachment of Nixon when I was a kid, I was still confused when Trump was impeached and stayed on as president — I had to look for an explanation for this. My country doesn't have the concept of impeachment. I don't think that "unsuccessfully impeached" is a useful shortcut, especially for an international website like ours. Ground Zero (talk) 02:20, 28 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I've always agreed that "impeached by the House of Representatives but not removed from office by the Senate" is the kind of unimpeachably (:-) clear phrasing we should use. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Franklin D. Roosevelt's blurb says "Forcibly interned many ethnic Japanese". The link is confusing (as the majority of people interned were US citizens, many second or third generation), and the phrasing is a bit unidiomatic. I suggest rephrasing to "Forcibly interned many Japanese-Americans". See w:Internment of Japanese Americans for background. Does anyone object? —Granger (talk · contribs) 13:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

The majority were born in the US, so "Japanese-American" is a better description. Ground Zero (talk) 14:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

"Ethnic Japanese" is broader, and they interned both Japanese-Americans and ethnic Japanese who were not US citizens. That said, I'm not going to fuss too much over this. The dog2 (talk) 21:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't find "ethnic Japanese" unidiomatic and agree with the dog that it is more accurate than "Japanese-American". Definitely agree with removing the link to Japan, however.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

If we're going to discuss this, I'd like to hear from other Americans about whether they find "ethnic Japanese" or "Japanese-Americans" to be a more natural phrasing. In my experience, the terminology "X-American" is more common in the US than "ethnic X". —Granger (talk · contribs) 21:21, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) As was stated already, the people imprisoned weren't all American citizens, which is why "ethnic Japanese" is more accurate, in this instance, than Japanese-American. If there's a problem with "ethnic Japanese" that I'm not seeing, then "...forcibly interned many Japanese and Japanese-Americans." is another historically-accurate phrasing. --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:27, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

If we want to avoid any ambiguity, we should use the phrasing "Japanese permanent residents and Japanese-Americans", or I think better, "permanent residents and U.S. citizens of Japanese origin", but "ethnic Japanese" is an accurate short-hand, and it's idiomatic for people who are of Japanese ethnicity but not necessarily Japanese citizens. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:30, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

It's not entirely surprising that a country at war would round up nationals of the country that has attacked it without provocation or warning. What is shocking is that the US (and Canada) incarcerated its own citizens base on their ethnicity, took away their civil rights and their property (and didn't return it). This is worth being clear about. Ground Zero (talk) 21:36, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I'm pretty sure they would have interned people of Japanese ethnicity who were neither American nor Japanese citizens. For instance, Peru and Brazil both have large Japanese diaspora communities, and if you were ethnically Japanese but a citizen of Peru or Brazil while in the U.S., they would have interned you too. And neither Peru nor Brazil were at war with the U.S. The dog2 (talk) 21:38, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ground Zero's point cuts to the heart of it. I'll suggest "Japanese-American citizens and permanent residents", so that we put the more shocking part first, but I won't fight the omission of "permanent residents". After all, there is no attempt to be minutely, encyclopedically accurate in this short blurbs. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:49, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

Absolutely fine with Ikan's suggestion.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 21:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'll compromise and accept Ikan's suggestion. The dog2 (talk) 23:32, 29 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Ground Zero: And just you know, this kind of internment of people based solely on their ethnicity is not unique to the US and Canada. When India and China went to war in 1962, India did the exact same thing to the ethnic Chinese community of Kolkata (most of whom were born in India). The Indian government never returned the confiscated property, and it was not until 1998 that the local-born Chinese were allowed to apply for Indian citizenship. And likewise, Vietnam expelled the ethnic Chinese (most of whom were born and raised in Vietnam) in the North when Vietnam and China went to war in 1979. That is why there is no Chinatown in Hanoi today, and the Chinese clan temples have been converted to other uses. And I'm sure you know that many Arab countries like Algeria expelled their local-born Jews after the start of the Arab-Israeli conflict was founded. The dog2 (talk) 15:30, 30 August 2020 (UTC)Reply

The edit has been made. Ikan Kekek (talk) 14:00, 3 September 2020 (UTC)Reply

Well folks, it looks likely that Biden has won, so should we try to draft the final version of Trump's blurb, as well as Biden's blurb to make the switch when 20th January comes? The dog2 (talk) 16:30, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

With the caveat that results aren't conclusive yet, if you'd like to start a rough draft of a Biden entry in your sandbox, ready to add on Jan. 20, go ahead. As for Trump, he has until Jan. 20, 2021 to continue doing things, so we can't close the book on his presidency until then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:41, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

By the nature of a wiki, there's no such thing as the "final" version of any of these blurbs. The relative importance of various aspects of the Trump presidency will only become clear with historical perspective. But of course we can update it (maybe it should mention why he was impeached). I would suggest that the initial version of Biden's blurb should be brief.

Anyway, the destinations are much more important than the blurbs—are there any Biden-related sites to visit? We have some time to do our research, assuming he does become president. —Granger (talk · contribs) 18:18, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Your point about the mutability of historical perspectives is well taken. In terms of Biden-related sites, we know he recently visited the house where he grew up in Scranton, PA, so we could probably find that address and mention it but note that it's a private house that can't be visited. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:21, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

whatever happens, Biden won't be president before noon January 20th. And a lot could potentially happen until then. Plus how does one even begin to summarize a thing yet in the future, namely Biden's tenure in office? Hobbitschuster (talk) 18:25, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

We can write a little about Biden's background. For instance that he was Obama's VP, and we can even mention a bit about Kamala Harris, who would be the first black, Asian and female VP. As for Trump, perhaps the peace deal he brokered between Israel and the two Arab countries, Bahrain and the UAE could be mentioned as a foreign policy achievement. The dog2 (talk) 18:34, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Not a peace deal, mere normalization of relations between countries that don't border on each other and weren't active combatants for a long time. And I think that's less significant than moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem, which also doesn't bear mentioning, IMO. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:36, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

One more thing about Biden. He would be the oldest person to take office, overtaking Trump in this regard. Of course, at this moment, while Biden looks likely to win, the results are far from conclusive, so no changes should be made to the article until the race is actually called. The dog2 (talk) 18:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'd suggest waiting until some time in January before adding a Biden entry. A lot of things could happen between now and then. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:50, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Biden's childhood home is at 2446 N. Washington Ave, Scranton per this local news article. Of course, we should mention that it's a private residence, and travellers should stay on the sidewalk. JakeOregon (talk) 23:19, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

When did we add mention of Brexit to European Union? Not in 2020, when it nominally took effect, but way back in 2017 when the vote took place. I see no reason for Wikivoyage to wait to Jan 2021 to acknowledge that President-elect Biden won this race; as soon as Pennsylvania is declared, we can stick a fork in this mess because it's done. 23.239.59.12 23:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Many things can happen between now and 20th January. And in any case, all blurbs have to be approved here by consensus before they can posted to the article. I don't mind if people want to try drafting the Biden blurb here, but until the community agrees, it should not go into articlespace. The dog2 (talk) 00:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

If something happens between now and then? We continue to update the page as it happens, much as we update pages rapidly as destinations are obliterated by tornadoes or become unsafe due to armed conflict. Wikivoyage is a wiki. If a disaster affects travel, we want the info sooner rather than later. 23.239.59.12 00:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

First of all, we're nonpartisan, so information should be presented in a nonpartisan way. Secondly, the community has agreed that the blurbs for each president have to be approved by community consensus before they can be published in articlespace. And thirdly, this article is about Presidents of the United States, and Biden is not president until he gets inaugurated on 20th January. The dog2 (talk) 01:04, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I agree with Ikan Kekek and The dog2. As soon as Biden is sworn into office, he should be added. Prior to that, he's not yet president. Compiling sights related to him beforehand is obviously fine. I don't really imagine his blurb upon entry really needing that much content. Former VP and oldest elected president are the main relevant/noteworthy trivia to say until he actually starts doing things in the office. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 03:36, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘For what it's worth, having first run for the office in 1988 he may well hold the record for "longest time from first campaign for President to Presidential inauguration" at something above 32 years... Hobbitschuster (talk) 12:52, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I've done a bit of searching for destinations and found these pages: . Not sure if any of those are worth listing in this article though. —Granger (talk · contribs) 16:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Auntie Beeb just called Pennsylvania for Biden. It's over: https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-54836636

That will require a few edits. Remove the "oldest" superlatives from Reagan and Trump. In "other titles" in the intro, replace "he" with "he or she" for the VP. (Her spouse, presumably, becomes the "second gentleman" - matching the existing use of "first gentleman" and "first lady" for spouses of individual state governors) Cut back the number of Trump POI's to match that of other former presidents - Mar-a-Lago might be notable, but every individual golf course Trump owns? No. That'd leave two POI's at most (maybe Trump Tower and Mar-a-Lago) until it's decided whether (and where) a Presidential Library or other museum will be created to mark the end of the Trump era. Put the map marker back on Mount Rushmore.

As for a 46. Biden entry? One line saying that he's currently expected to be inaugurated on 20 Jan 2021 and leave it at that for now? Dunno. 66.102.87.40 16:44, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't see why we would "cut back" POIs when a president leaves office. That said, it might make sense to cover Trump International Golf Club as part of the Mar-a-Lago listing. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:18, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

The "oldest" lines are still true for some time. –LPfi (talk) 17:42, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Mx. Granger: If look at the Google Maps, Trump International Golf Club is not next to Mar-a-Lago. It's actually a couple of miles away. The dog2 (talk) 18:33, 7 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Four POIs is a lot compared to most single-term presidents, but then again Trump's presidency will likely go down as unusually consequential to American history by comparison with other single-term presidents, so viewed in that light the amount might be more understandable. Still, it's worth thinking about what POIs might be more relevant specifically to Trump's time as president, rather than his previous life as a public figure outside the political realm (Trump Tower, for example, doesn't seem to have much importance to any of the pivotal events of his administration). Also, two golf courses? I know he enjoyed the sport, but still... -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:38, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Also, mark me down as in favor of the IP editor's idea for a one-line acknowledgement of Biden's impending inauguration but putting off the addition of any POIs until after January 20. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 03:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I think we should also try to draft the "final" version of Trump's blurb, so we can switch it in once Trump leaves office and Biden takes over. So I guess we should think about what are Trump's most consequential policies. And I'm not sure if we should have a one line summary on why he lost re-election (which I think it's safe to say is due to COVID-19). Of course, Trump could still do many things in the 2+ months he has left in office, but we can always update the draft until it gets implemented in the main article after he leaves office. The dog2 (talk) 04:28, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think it's at all clear that he lost because of COVID-19. Some people probably voted for him because they buy his false dichotomy between fighting the disease with behavioral restrictions and getting the economy back to normal. And circumstantial evidence suggests that Biden's margin in several states was from Republican and Republican-leaning voters who voted against Trump because they were sick of his tweeting and so on but then voted for Republicans for the House, Senate, State Legislature, etc. As for points of interest for an outgoing president, I doubt we should remove any. And furthermore, New York's Trump Tower was relevant because blocks of it were rented by the Secret Service at cost and it was a focal point for anti-Trump demonstrations. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'm pretty sure there was also a significant people who turned away from Trump because of his mishandling of COVID-19. I actually personally know someone who was a Trump supporter because he is making millions of dollars and was very grateful to Trump for the tax cut he received, and in fact donated $20,000 to Trump's campaign before COVID-19 hit. Only when COVID-19 hit and it became plainly obvious that Trump was not taking it seriously did he turn on Trump and end up voting for Biden instead. But yes, what you said is true. I have other conservative friends who never liked Trump from the outset because of the things he says. The dog2 (talk) 07:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

A big part of the problem in trying to figure out why Trump lost is that opinion polls were so inaccurate this year in the U.S. Over the course of the Trump Administration, he looked consistently and historically unpopular, with his popularity only arguably decreasing somewhat after the early days of the pandemic in the U.S., but the polls were wrong, so we really don't know why he lost, but it's not obvious whether he would have had more or fewer votes without the pandemic. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:48, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

We're travel guide writers, not historians or political scientists, so I suggest we keep this kind of debate to a minimum. The blurbs are really not important. —Granger (talk · contribs) 08:06, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Agreed. And what they should reflect is known or at least widely accepted facts. Stating that Trump lost during a pandemic many people thought he mishandled is true; stating he lost because he was perceived to have mishandled the pandemic is problematic because how would we know? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:30, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Still, him having been highly controversial is a "known or at least widely accepted fact". I think we should, with suitable wording, say something about that. I suppose he contributed significantly to the polarisation of the country (that's at least part of the story told over here), and if so – given we can word it in a neutral way – something should be said about that. I suppose most presidents before him have tried at least to look like they strive to be president for all of the people, which my impression is he hasn't. –LPfi (talk) 10:18, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Right. Ikan Kekek (talk) 10:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think it's true that Trump didn't try be "president for all of the people", but his methods were certainly different from the norm. I obviously don't know him, but my impression is that he likely genuinely felt/feels that he was "representing the people" against the media establishment, corrupt political elites, and China. I think in many ways he did have his hand on America's pulse (Americans on both sides do distrust the media and are skeptical of establishment politicians, and the growing threat/fear of China is also on more Americans' minds) but there was a clear disconnect regarding HOW he chose to address things versus how the public wanted him to address them, even if only in terms of his way of speaking. Whether or not Americans FELT represented doesn't seem like a uniquely Trumpian thing. Very few presidents are likely to be cited as making all or most Americans "feel represented".

I agree with others that Covid was the predominant cause of Trump's loss. Not only were some voters turned off by his response, but I have doubts that the turnout for Biden would have been so high had the mail-in ballot system not been implemented. The mail-ins were heavily in favor of Biden in most places. It's clear that mail-in ballots were responsible for Biden's (probable) win, and that is all due to Covid. It can be debated as to whether those voters would have still voted if it had all been in-person, but Covid was undoubtedly a huge part of this election and it definitely benefited Biden. I think it definitely should be given mention. It changed the entire election process. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 13:54, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ My hunch is that Trump would have won re-election in a landslide had it not been for COVID-19. Trump actually got a record turnout and won more votes this time than Obama did in 2008, and it took an even bigger record turnout for Biden this time round to defeat him, so it's certainly conceivable that Trump would have even won the popular vote had it not be for COVID-19. And not to mention, Trump actually increased his vote share among black, Latino, LGBT and female voters, but eventually lost because there was enough of a swing in the other direction from retirees and white college-educated male voters. But anyway, to get back to updating Trump's blurb, how about inserting a sentence at the end stating: "Lost his bid for re-election amid the COVID-19 pandemic, which many people felt he had mismanaged." In that way, we're not speculating on the reasons for his loss, and we're also keeping it nonpartisan by not taking sides ourselves, but merely acknowledging that many people felt that way. The dog2 (talk) 16:58, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

ChubbyWimbus, ask any liberal whether Trump tried to represent us. Liberals don't expect Republicans not to differentiate themselves from liberals, but the level of vituperation, personal attacks and threats from a president is unprecedented in my 55 years. And I could go on to talk about whether he tried to represent POWs and their families, Muslims, anti-Nazis, refugees and immigrants from "shithole countries", New Yorkers struggling because he refuses to send relief to our state's government that was way into the black until the pandemic he refused to manage hit, etc., etc. As for your proposed wording, The dog2, I already proposed it, and I'd appreciate not having more discussions about how Trump would have supposedly won by a landslide if he was different in no other way than not having a pandemic to (mis)manage or how the most divisive and vulgarly abusive president in modern history who said Nazis and KKK and a teenage lyncher who threatened and murdered were "good people" actually tried to represent everyone. Signed, a democratic socialist New York Jew. Ikan Kekek (talk) 17:35, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek: I think you're misunderstanding what I was saying. I don't disagree with all these things you brought up about Trump, and my statement was not meant to be a political endorsement of Trump, but merely stating what I think the numbers showed, because frankly speaking, the fact that slightly less than half the country turned out in record numbers to vote for someone like that who has made America a laughing stock on the international stage is concerning. Go and check out some of Andrew Yang's post-election interviews and you'll see where I'm coming from. But anyway, this is not the place for political debates, so I'll leave it at that. The dog2 (talk) 17:46, 8 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ikan Kekek, The thing is, Liberals also said Bush didn't represent them. Conservatives said Obama didn't represent them or try to represent them. None of that is at all unique to Trump. The people's feelings don't tell us if the men themselves believed they made the effort, and that's what matters when talking about whether they "tried" or not. "Trying" comes from oneself, not from others. You can try to save someone's life and end up contributing to their death. The horrible results don't negate the fact that you tried or felt like you were doing good at the time. I'm surprised you still believe the "fine people" soundbite. If you actually listened to that press briefing, he stated clearly that the "fine people" were those who just wanted to protest the tearing down of the statue and also stated clearly that he was not referring to the white nationalists and neo-Nazis who he said "should be condemned totally". That whole debacle was one of many that was easy to verify the complete dishonesty of the media.

At any rate, the Covid line seems to be agreed upon.

Another bit of trivia for Trump is that he is the first president since Jimmy Carter to not start a new war or send Americans into a foreign conflict. That is rather noteworthy as Americans have become quite accustomed to war and in spite of Trump's aggressive demeanor, he maintained unprecedented peace during his time in office. ChubbyWimbus (talk) 11:33, 9 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Anyone can see audiovisual footage of him supporting the actions of the 17-year-old terrorist who drove up from Illinois to shoot demonstrators dead in Kenosha just for being Black and affirming that Black lives matter, in the wake of a killing by the police. And trying does matter, but it's a matter of words and gestures at least. No, GW Bush didn't represent me and I consider him an unpunished murderer, torturer and war criminal, but his rhetoric was not at the level of Trump's constant insults, verbal attacks and threats toward everyone he didn't like. Recall that domestically, GW Bush made both words and gestures of respect for the American Muslim community, and even though with the other hand, he quietly had hundreds of people in New York City alone arrested and detained just because they were Muslim and his rhetoric and actions on the international stage had a role in making the situation scary for American Muslims (along with many American non-Muslims' reaction that because terrorists were avowedly acting in the name of Islam, all Muslims should be under suspicion, when that's never the reaction to all whites when white terrorists strike, as in Oklahoma City), that did matter. The idea that Trump, of all people, tried to bring people together is not something that can pass any kind of smell test while he's still in office. You could try that argument again after most of the witnesses to his presidency are no longer around to refute it, but even then, if you're not dealing with people comfortable with fact-denial, the mountains of tweets and video clips would be hard to get around. And I'd as soon continue to argue about this as to argue with a QAnon supporter that the Democrats aren't actually a cabal of child molestors who drink human blood and the civil rights struggle isn't caused by Jews manipulating Blacks, so if you insist on having the last word on this non-argument, that's up to you as long as you don't try to put any of this stuff into articlespace. Ikan Kekek (talk) 12:32, 9 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Please stop the political debates, everyone. I suggest we leave the blurb alone for the time being—it is really not important. If we must change it, let's keep any discussion narrowly focused on what should go in the article. —Granger (talk · contribs) 17:08, 9 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think there has been any disagreement on the addition to Trump's blurb, so I'd say let's go ahead and add it. Trump has lost his bid for re-election, and even Fox News has called it, and regardless of how you lean politically, that is a fact. If Trump does anything noteworthy in his final two months in office, we can always add it to the blurb later. As for Biden's entry, let's wait till inauguration to add it, because he is not president yet. The dog2 (talk) 19:16, 9 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

We should at least acknowledge, by name, that Joe Biden is scheduled to be inaugurated to the 46th US presidency in Jan 2021. The comment "Biden isn't president yet. Anything can happen in the next 2 months." is bizarre, as the election is over and the outcome is known. A recount in one state won't be enough to change that, at least not lawfully, so no reason not to name 46. Biden as the current President-Elect of the United States of America. 66.102.87.40 06:55, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

For all we know, he could die prior to January 20. I don't expect that, but I don't see in a travel guide what we gain by running a blurb for a president before he takes office. What's bothering you about just having a blurb ready to run when he's inaugurated? Ikan Kekek (talk) 16:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) Granger, you keep saying that the blurbs are not important, but the consensus almost since the beginning of this article's existence has been that they do serve an important role in contextualizing the POI listings. So I would ask you to respect that consensus and redirect your comments toward how to make Trump's blurb best reflect his administration. I agree that much of the political discussion preceding your comment was extraneous, but some of it wasn't, and when you strip away the bluster you find a lot of valuable insights about what does and doesn't belong in the blurb.

At the very least, I think we can all agree on including the facts that Trump was president during the COVID-19 pandemic and that his response to it was widely criticized as ineffective, as well as the fact that there was widespread civil unrest during his administration, for a variety of different reasons, most notably police brutality against POC and the feeling among some Americans that the COVID-19 lockdowns were too heavy-handed. I also like ChubbyWimbus's suggestion of mentioning Trump's relatively isolationist and non-interventionist foreign policy, which really is a startling break from his predecessors going back at least as far as Reagan.

As The dog2 said above, I would prefer to avoid any speculation about what contributed to Trump's defeat in 2020 (COVID may well rank high among them, but we won't know for sure for a long time, and we should avoid regarding the immediate post-mortems as being conclusive). Bizarre tangents about whether Trump felt he represented all Americans as president or just his base also don't belong in the blurb.

And, perhaps just as importantly, we need to let go of the idea that whatever is the end result of this discussion will be the "final" Trump blurb. The ultimate legacy of any given president in American history generally does not become clear until years or decades after their administration, and that legacy often ends up looking very different than we would have expected in the immediate aftermath (for instance, did you know that as of 2018, a solid majority of Americans have a positive opinion of George W. Bush?). Not to mention that Trump is still in office for two more months, and it's possible that some unexpected event that's consequential to his legacy (a terrorist attack, a major stock market crash) might occur between now and January 2021. So we should remain open to further revisions to the blurb as the final weeks and months of Trump's presidency elapse, and even after he's out of office as his legacy continues to evolve.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 16:28, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Going into detail about the police killing of George Floyd and the anti-lockdown protests is going to make Trump's blurb too long. So I suggest we keep it short and sweet by just using the term "widespread civil unrest". So perhaps we modify the addition to his blurb to "Lost his bid for re-election amid the COVID-19 pandemic and widespread civil unrest, which many people felt he had mismanaged." How does that sound? The dog2 (talk) 17:13, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Too unspecific and too extreme (there wasn't "widespread civil unrest", contrary to totally false Republican claims about the downtowns of "Democrat-run cities" burning for months). We could add "and civil unrest following the killings of several unarmed Black people by police officers". It wasn't just George Floyd but also Breonna Taylor, Daniel Prude, the attempted killing of Jacob Blake, the man who was murdered by racist white civilians in Atlanta, etc. Ikan Kekek (talk) 18:17, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Ikan - There were George Floyd protests in practically every major city in the country, some of which lasted for weeks, which covers the "widespread" part. As for "civil unrest", the statement that the vast majority of George Floyd protests were nonviolent is true but irrelevant. Civil unrest does not automatically imply violence. It's a spectrum that encompasses nonviolent protest at one end, rioting somewhere in the middle, and literal civil war at the other end. Furthermore, "widespread civil unrest" does not refer only to the George Floyd protests. The anti-lockdown demonstrations were also widespread, albeit not quite as much so as the George Floyd ones, and also were more often violent or at least carried the implicit threat of violence (many of the protesters were armed, for example). So the lack of specificity is at least somewhat by design. The overarching idea those words are intended to convey is that the Trump presidency represented the point in time where America's increasing political polarization, a trend that had been accelerating since the Clinton years, reached the level of direct confrontation in the streets. We can draw the line there and say that readers who are curious about all the different themes around which those confrontations manifested themselves can look elsewhere for that information. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

And before anyone gets on my back, I call them "George Floyd protests" because they immediately followed the death of George Floyd, not to deny that the other unarmed killings of Black folks by police also played a role in the reaction. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 19:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Your points are well taken. So what phrasing do you propose to add? Ikan Kekek (talk) 19:43, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘When uniformed police riot, it's still a riot. Hobbitschuster (talk) 20:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

My phrasing was intentionally vague in keeping with our policy of non-partisanship. Perhaps 50 years or so down the road when Trump is evaluated by historians, things will change, but as of now, I think we can just acknowledge that there has been civil unrest. Yes, there has been the BLM protests, but there were also white right-wingers storming the Michigan Legislature with their guns in order to protest the COVID-19 lockdowns, and the Proud Boys deliberately going to Portland to start fights with the BLM protesters, so simply stating "civil unrest" convers all these things. Whether or not Trump is to blame for the unrest is not for us to judge here on WV, though it is accurate to say that many people have blamed him for mismanaging the civil unrest too. The dog2 (talk) 22:21, 10 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Ikan Kekek, AndreCarrotflower: So what will it be then. How should we cover the unrest? Or should we even mention it at all? The dog2 (talk) 23:47, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Here's an attraction in Ballina, County Mayo, Ireland - https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2020/11/11/irelands-new-must-have-photo-op-is-a-mural-of-president-elect-joe-biden/ that could possibly be included when Biden gets added to the article. - WOSlinker (talk) 21:48, 14 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

@The dog2, Ikan Kekek: Here's a first draft:

Donald Trump (R), 2017-present — Wealthy real estate tycoon and media personality who was the oldest president to assume office (age 70 at his inauguration), and the first to have held no prior elected or military office. His "America First" agenda involved restrictions on immigration, an expansion of the Mexican border wall, and a foreign policy that emphasized military non-intervention and economic protectionism (culminating in a trade war with China) and saw the U.S. withdraw from the Paris climate accords among other international agreements. An extremely divisive figure, Trump was the third president to be impeached (though he was not removed from office); his single term coincided with widespread civil unrest and the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, which he was widely felt to have mismanaged.

(For the sake of reducing the blurb's length, I took out the part about him being the second president to have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, which, while potentially travel-relevant, doesn't have much to do with his presidency per se. Perhaps his star [and Reagan's] would work better as POI listings than in the blurbs?)

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:30, 14 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Just a few minor changes from me. First, I think we can be more specific and use "billionaire" instead of "wealthy", since it's true. He was in fact the richest person to hold an elected office in the US until J. B. Pritzker got elected governor of Illinois in 2018. Also, I would replace "agenda" with "policy" since he was actually in power, and the word "policy" comes across as less politically charged to me. And for the last sentence, "he was widely felt to have mismanaged" could be contentious because it suggests that the majority of people think he has mismanaged those things. As far as I know, we have no data, so "many people felt he had mismanaged" would be better since it gives no indication as to whether it's a majority of people or not. The dog2 (talk) 23:57, 14 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'm fine with the proposed new version of the blurb on Trump. I don't care about agenda vs. policy, but "widely" doesn't mean "by a clear majority" and is briefer and neater than The dog2's proposed edit. Also, I don't think it's a fact that he's a billionaire, so I would oppose stating that he is. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:08, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I prefer the word "agenda" because "policy" appears again later in the same sentence.

Also, notably: we will soon be able to shorten Trump's blurb by removing the "oldest president to assume office" factoid, as Joe Biden will be 78 years old upon inauguration.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 01:50, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Yes, the "oldest president to assume office" will need to be removed once Joe Biden gets inaugurated. I have no further points than the ones I previously raised, so if there are no further objections for others, go ahead and update the blurb. The dog2 (talk) 02:17, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Done. I also added POI listings for Reagan and Trump's stars on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, and removed the reference to Reagan's star from his blurb. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 05:42, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Going back to Biden's age, we will also need to remove the part of Reagan's blurb that says he is "to date the oldest president upon leaving office", as Reagan left office at the age of 77 which is already younger than Biden will be on Inauguration Day. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:42, 16 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

his single term coincided with the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic, which he was widely felt to have mismanaged, as well as widespread civil unrest, culminating in an attempted coup by his supporters who sought to overturn his defeat in the 2020 election.

Looking at the blurb on Eisenhower, I think we should briefly mention that he was the one who planned the D-Day invasion at Normandy. After all, that was probably what gave him the necessary fame to successfully run for the presidency. The dog2 (talk) 00:12, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Just that, or the totality of his record as Commander of the European Theater of Operations? Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:14, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

There is a limit to how much we can fit in the blurbs but sure, I guess we could mention both. Or which do you think is more important to mention? The dog2 (talk) 00:21, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I don't think anything needs to be added to the blurb about him. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

yeah, George Patton got the big Hollywood movie, but Ike did chew him up and put him aside of the main action, which this movie does not show. He also liked to cook outdoors, and barbecued a lot on the roof of the White House while he lived there.... where would we stop, eh. Ibaman (talk) 00:27, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

There are also some important foreign policy events we don't mention, including the CIA involvement with the overthrow of Mossadegh and Arbenz, and Eisenhower's Farewell Address, in which he warned about the military-industrial complex. Ikan Kekek (talk) 00:38, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

The Farewell Address is memorable indeed, but paragraph size and spacing are real issues here. Ibaman (talk) 00:45, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ If not for the limited space, I would have mentioned something about Eisenhower's farewell address, though unfortunately, it was not heeded by future American presidents. The dog2 (talk) 00:59, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

No comment about possible reasons for their silence, but since space is an issue, we don't really need to add any of this. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

There's a new attriction in New York called the "Air Force One Experience" (https://www.airforceoneexperience.com/). It's not directly linked to any presidents as it's only a replica (still a real aeroplane but was never Air Force One). The attraction is not fully open yet, but once it is open, is it worth adding? -- WOSlinker (talk) 22:12, 14 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

What pushes me off the fence into the "no" column is that the #Multiple presidents section includes an actual (retired) Air Force One plane that was donated to a museum in Seattle and can be toured by visitors, and strongly hints that others exist as well. A mere simulation of the same thing would strike me as both redundant and, from the traveller's perspective, clearly the inferior of the two options. It's a tough call, though, and both positions have merit. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:05, 14 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I've found a couple other museums we list that have real planes that were used as Air Force One- Museum of the U.S. Air Force has one that was used by Kennedy thru Clinton, and the Reagan Library, used 1973-2001. We also already mention that the Air Mobility Command Museum has a plane that was mainly used as Air Force Two, but occasionally as Air Force One when Presidents visited smaller airports. JakeOregon (talk) 01:03, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Here's an article that lists where all the old aircraft are. -- WOSlinker (talk) 09:02, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I know it is a minor quibble, but Hoover was actually a well known philanthropist before becoming president - this - and ironically a "he can get stuff done" reputation is what propelled him to that office. Among the biggest feathers in his cap are his relief effort for Belgium during the phase of the Great War when the U.S. was still officially neutral. He also had an extraordinarily long post-presidency (he post-deceased Kennedy) and an unusually travel-happy pre-presidency (he'd lived in China for a time). He was also something of a polyglot, translating w:de re metallica into English in an apparently still well-regarded translation. What's a bit sad is that he seems to have bought the hype of his opponents after leaving office (his actual policy vis-a-vis the Depression had actually not been "do nothing") and became something of a Libertarian-Conservative "think tank" leader avant la lettre. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

I think this is an OK thing to edit, by stating that he was also known as a philanthropist before and after his presidency. Ikan Kekek (talk) 21:00, 16 November 2020 (UTC)Reply

Re: this edit: I didn't think we'd be listing houses of presidents' brothers, sisters or what have you, though maybe we should if they visited frequently. What do you all think? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:20, 3 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Best to avoid expanding this article's scope given that we're already flirting with the threshold of too many POIs. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 17:09, 3 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

That's a reasonable position, certainly. Any other opinions pro or con? Ikan Kekek (talk) 20:53, 3 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

I'd say not given how many POIs we already have. The dog2 (talk) 02:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

User:JakeOregon, would you like to argue for the listing before we delete it? Ikan Kekek (talk) 08:03, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Reasonable points have been made on the length of this article and unwanted expansion of scope, so no, I don't object now to deletion. JakeOregon (talk) 18:41, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

OK, thanks for understanding. I'll take care of this now. Ikan Kekek (talk) 23:49, 4 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

this has been used by several presidents and candidates for the presidency but if I read WP correctly it is not open to the public. The article makes no mention of Biden's 2020 use of this specific vehicle, which may or may not indicate that his "whistle stop tour" was done with yet another rail vehicle. Hobbitschuster (talk) 16:14, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Reply

Nah, Biden’s too busy relying on Amtrak. JTZegers (talk) 02:18, 13 June 2021 (UTC)Reply