Hi!

You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.

When someone edits a Wikimedia wiki without being logged in today, we show their IP address. As you may already know, we will not be able to do this in the future. This is a decision by the Wikimedia Foundation Legal department, because norms and regulations for privacy online have changed.

Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.

If you have not seen it before, you can read more on Meta. If you want to make sure you don’t miss technical changes on the Wikimedia wikis, you can subscribe to the weekly technical newsletter.

We have two suggested ways this identity could work. We would appreciate your feedback on which way you think would work best for you and your wiki, now and in the future. You can let us know on the talk page. You can write in your language. The suggestions were posted in October and we will decide after 17 January.

Thank you. /Johan (WMF)

18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I heard that Koreans have a very strong sense of ethnic and national solidarity. So if you criticise a South Korean politician, even if your listener agrees with your criticism, he may still get offended because you are a foreigner criticising a Korean, and he will feel the need to defend his kinsman from an outsider. How true is that in your experience?

Also, how much do you think we should cover the historiographical and cultural disputes with China? I remember there was a huge outcry from the South Korean public when a representative of China's ethnic Korean minority wore a hanbok at the opening ceremony of the 2022 Winter Olympics. And apparently, South Koreans are very upset about China listing the Goguryeo historical sites in China as UNESCO World Heritage Sites, because they see it as an attempt by China to appropriate Korean history. The dog2 (talk) 22:05, 29 January 2024 (UTC) The dog2 (talk) 22:05, 29 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"he may still get offended because you are a foreigner criticising a Korean, and he will feel the need to defend his kinsman from an outsider. How true is that in your experience?" - I feel that out of all countries I've visited, South Korea and Japan really stand out in the sense that they really believe that they are so different and unique that no foreigner can truly understand them. A South Korean can both really despise the President (for example) and simultaneously take offence of a foreigner criticizes that same person. I guess the deeper problem with South Korean politics however is that it is so fluid, complicated and geographic that trying to engage with it is fraught with danger.

China does represent a political sticking point (the Left is regarded as being aligned to the interests of to North Korea/China and the Right with Japan), however most actual disputes are treated fairly insignificantly compared to those with Japan where the military starts increasing exercises around Dodko island at any provocation. As you say, the Chinese appropriation of Korean cultural aspects such as hanboks, kimchi and history are increasingly creating outcries although they do not generally translate to meaningful action. Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:58, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see. I wonder if some of it might be a misunderstanding then. As you know, I understand Chinese, and what is really happening is that China claims things like kimchi and hanbok as part of the cultural heritage of its ethnic Korean minority. They don't claim it as part of Han Chinese culture. And the kimchi issue is due to confusion with the Sichuan dish paocai, since kimchi is also called paocai in Chinese. Chinese people usually know which one you are referring to from context, but if necessary, people will indicate they are referring to kimchi by adding the the prefix "Korean" so it is clear you are not talking about the Sichuan dish. And as you know, borders shift with time, so parts of northeast China were once part of various Korean kingdoms, and therefore have Korean historical sites.

Anyway, what do you think of how this issue is covered right now in the Respect section? In that incident at the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics, the woman who wore the hanbok is an ethnic Korean, albeit born and raised in China. The dog2 (talk) 01:22, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was recently in Seoul and saw lots of south-east Asian women wearing hanboks at the palaces based on their love of Korean drama. It isn't seen as bad at all to use Korean culture as long as it is acknowledged as Korean, which is where the discomfort with Chinese promotions of similar culture come from.

Most Koreans are aware of their long history of being a small country at the crossroads of three major powers and constant invasions up until recent memory. Cultural appropriation is regarded as chipping away at Korean sovereignty generally, which is always sensitive given that history shows repeated violations of sovereignty by foreign powers, and even today the existence of the USA military on their soil is a stark and constant reminder of the fragility of it. Honesty, I understand Korean feelings towards this, even if true intentions are, as you say, coincidental and benign.

In terms of the current 'respect' section, I don't think anti-Chinese sentiment actually figures highly in Korean society today, so I don't think it needs too much ink. Just my opinion though. Andrewssi2 (talk) 02:25, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So do you think the current iteration goes into too much detail, or is it fine? The dog2 (talk) 03:00, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel it could be shortened with the specific historical detail removed, and placed after the Japanese paragraph since that is (I believe) more relevant to visitors Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:16, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why don't you take a stab at it then? The dog2 (talk) 03:19, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And just one more thing I will point out is that the hanbok does show strong influences from the Chinese clothing styles of the Ming Dynasty, which is in a sense no surprise given the historically close relationship between the Joseon and the Ming. Of course, given modern-day Korean nationalism, I can see that Koreans will feel uncomfortable when that gets pointed out. Because of that, the two often get confused with each other even though they are not the same thing. And some crazy ultra-nationalists aside, most Chinese recognise the hanbok as Korean. The controversial Chinese YouTuber Shiyin actually did a video where she points out the differences between the hanbok and the Chinese clothing of the Ming Dynasty, so despite what the Western and Korean media has said about her, she does acknowledge that the two are different.

In much the same way, the Japanese kimono shows strong influences from the Chinese clothing styles of the Tang Dynasty, and people often confuse the two given their similarities. The Qing Dynasty banned the traditional Han Chinese clothing and forced the Han Chinese to wear Manchu clothing, so that is what is typically considered to be traditional Chinese clothing these days, and most Westerners won't be familiar with traditional Han Chinese clothing. The dog2 (talk) 06:30, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

To be clear, I'm not taking sides on the debates of Hanboks, Kimchi dishes or whatever. Korean culture has obviously been influenced by Chinese culture for two thousand years (if not more). From a travel guide perspective, we simply want to highlight local sensitivities whenever they occur. Andrewssi2 (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ One more thing here. At least my experience is that pointing out similarities between their cultures and China is not as sensitive to Japanese and Vietnamese as it is to Koreans. Would that be your experience as well? The current Respect section says that you should never draw parallels between Korean culture and either Chinese or Japanese culture, so would you consider that a little overboard, or is it that sensitive an issue for Koreans? The dog2 (talk) 18:37, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would understand the sensitivity with comparison towards Japanese culture - Japan did attempt to replace all Korean names, language and culture during the annexation - I rarely perceive the same towards China. Chinese writing, Confucianism and many other aspects are embraced in Korea as a sign of education; perhaps somewhat similar to how Americans perceive the Roman empire and Latin language - a foreign influence that strengthens them. It could be argued that Koreans take Confucianism even more seriously than traditional Chinese cultures today, although that is going off-topic a bit. So yes, a 'little overboard'. Andrewssi2 (talk) 21:25, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I've made the change. Please have a look. The dog2 (talk) 21:41, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hey,

I saw that you created the Flying to Africa article. Currently there is a discussion on the article's talk page to delete the article because the content has become wrong/outdated. What's your opinion about it? Would you like to update the article? 80.187.73.210 21:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I had actually forgotten that I created this. It was probably because a bunch of similar articles was being created at that time. My opinion is that it is a disaster, with laundry lists of inaccurate flight routes that no sane person would ever try and use as a reference.

It should be rewritten - basically a high level introduction for flying and the considerations of flying to Africa Andrewssi2 (talk) 23:06, 13 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please express your opinion on Talk:Flying to Africa#up to date?. There's been discussion of merging part of the introduction and redirecting the article to Africa#By plane. Ikan Kekek (talk) 01:34, 14 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder where you got the impression from that colonial influence in Taiwan is waning. When I last visited Taiwan, colonial nostalgia was everywhere, like the Hayashi Department Store in Tainan, or in the red building at Ximending in Taipei. The modern pop culture of Taiwan has very obvious Japanese influences. For instance, Taiwanese variety shows are modelled after Japanese ones, and local Taiwanese designs clearly draw their inspiration from Japanese ones. And there's also baseball, hot spring bathing and railway bentos that are still popular in Taiwan, and were introduced by the Japanese. In fact, I'd say that most young Taiwanese see the legacy of Japanese colonial rule as integral to their national and cultural identity, and feel that the Japanese cultural influences are what makes them Taiwanese and not Chinese. The dog2 (talk) 13:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I don't claim to be an authority on Taiwan in any way, however given past and very current political sensitivities between China, Japan and Taiwan, I would suggest that the subject be at least approached with care. and the other question would be, does it really need stating in the East Asia article?

To suggest a country is influenced culturally is problematic, mostly because all cultures have been heavily influenced by multiple 'foreign' ones. I could claim (for example) that China was influenced by Indian culture via Buddhism; It would be correct, potentially offensive and also 99.9% irrelevant to a travel article. So, what are we really trying to say here, especially in a travel context? Andrewssi2 (talk) 04:37, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I was just perplexed by your comment that colonial influence is waning in Hong Kong and Taiwan. I haven't been to Hong Kong in a while, but in Taiwan, although I don't claim to be an expert, my impression is that is far from the case. Of course, Japanese culture has had been strongly influenced by Chinese culture for over a millennium, so it may sometimes be unclear which elements of Taiwanese culture are a result of colonial influences from Japan, and which are due to the Chinese ancestry of most Taiwanese. I don't know when was the last time you went to Taiwan, but for me, the Japanese cultural influences were very apparent, and many tourist attractions are based on the theme of colonial nostalgia. Both Taiwan and Korea may have been Japanese colonies, but Taiwan is very different from Korea in this regard. The dog2 (talk) 10:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sincere apologies if I have offended in any way. The sentence about Taiwan was in the same breathe as the cultural influence of Britain on Hong Kong. Obviously the British legacy in Hong Kong lives on in buildings and the legal system, but in most respects the cultural influence have has massively declined since handover and moreover after the Umbrella revolution. The average Hong Konger in their 20’s has very little regard about the legacy of the UK, which is easy to understand given the lack of concrete support they were given in resisting the changes to the treaty.

Taiwan is obviously different, however do you believe that the average Taiwanese identifies with Japan in many ways? Andrewssi2 (talk) 00:27, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not offended. With regard to the dispute on the political status of Taiwan, I have no horse in this race. I'm only concerned about factual accuracy and what a traveller is likely to experience when they visit Taiwan.

Japanese influence is huge in Taiwan. Most younger Taiwanese don't speak Japanese anymore unless they work in the tourism industry, but the aesthetics of modern Taiwanese design draw heavily from Japan. Japanese anime, manga and games are massively popular in Taiwan, and if you go to Ximending in Taipei, the general vibe and the aesthetics of the advertising feel very similar to Harajuku in Tokyo. If you do a survey of Taiwanese youth, their favourite country is usually Japan. The traditional religion, cuisine and folk customs are still very much Chinese, but some things like hot spring bathing, baseball and mochi are clearly influences from Japan. In fact, go to any 7-eleven in Taiwan and they will sell oden. Also, Japanese companies have a huge presence in Taiwan; most of the large Taiwanese department stores are joint ventures with Japanese department store chains, and Kuroneko's Takkyūbin courier service is also popular in Taiwan. I don't think the average Taiwanese identifies as Japanese, but many Taiwanese, especially the youths, view Japan as their "big brother" and really look up to Japan for inspiration.

With regard to HK, my last trip there was before the Umbrella protests, so things might have changed. But for me, the British influence was most visible in the form of Hong Kong-style Western food like milk tea and French toast. Horse racing is still very popular in Hong Kong. And if you can afford it, the Peninsula Hotel is a really nice place to sit down and have a pot of traditional English tea. The dog2 (talk) 01:11, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are definitely no shortages of British cultural examples in Hong Kong, even today. I would just categorize them as 'waning' rather than keeping steady, which is not surprising given the new official narrative that the colonial time is an embarrassment to overcome and definitely not something to be celebrated. As an aside, residence visas for mainland Chinese are at a high this year, and for all other nationalities they are at an all-time low.

I agree that the Taiwanese do not look to Japan with particular fondness for their colonial past but rather the contemporary pop culture. It has to be said that all East Asian countries admire Japanese pop culture to some extent - even mainland China - but as you say perhaps the Taiwanese are the most explicit about it. Andrewssi2 (talk) 03:34, 17 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My Admin skills were criticized on the Byron Bay article. This was very strange since I had never once taken any Admin action against this contributor who directed clear bullying behavior towards me. (Byron Bay talk page).

I sometimes make Admin mistakes, but I have never exercised the tools in bad faith. Being an Admin is not for power tripping and my complete restraint towards the badly behaved contributor demonstrates that.

It goes to show that some people who feel inadequate in their life regard being an Admin as a status symbol and express jealously towards people who are - please be very careful of people like that because they will never work in the best interests of this site or community. Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:28, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I inadvertently exposed a contributor's personal insecurities on the Byron Bay talk page, resulting in disgusting and unwarranted personal abuse being directed towards me. see - Byron Bay talk page.

I took some time away and discovered that there are far more important things in my life to prioritize than deal with low quality people like that. They claimed I did not respect them, and frankly that is now true- I cannot respect anyone who lies and acts completely in bad faith just because they felt threatened by someone who was editing better than them.

I found that more time I took the less desire I have to return. I hope Wikivoyage community can deal with individuals such as this and make it a safe space for all going forward. Andrewssi2 (talk) 20:31, 13 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]