This suggestion has come up in the pub before, but to formalise a proposal.

Propose that we have a guideline to avoid creating stubby or outline itinerary articles. Instead, we create the outline itinerary within the smallest reasonable containing region. When the itinerary can stand on its own feet, or when it overloads the containing article, we move it to an independent article.

The advantages I see are

1. The itinerary will get more attention - more people will see it.
2. The name and scope of the itinerary can be changed easily (i.e duration and geography).
3. We avoid have outline itineraries articles hanging around which must go through year-long wait and the vfd process.
4. Region articles - which can often be sparse or redundant - get more useful content.
5. Failed itineraries are easily changed, or content merged back into the region.
6. It helps build itinerary articles by consensus, rather than each itinerary reflecting the original authors view.

Disadvantages:

1. Otherwise complete region articles may get overloaded with outline itineraries.

Any opinions, or development of the idea?

(as an aside, if this proposal receives support, I will proceed to propose the same thing for a class of travel topics - like "destination with children", that is only when they are well developed do we move them out of the destination article. This has also been discussed previously, but lets not bite off too much here, lets deal with itineraries first). --(WT-en) inas 22:40, 3 May 2010 (EDT)

I think this would be sensible - there is already a sub-section under "See" for itineraries, so it might be worth explicitly stating that itineraries should start out in the the parent city/region article and only move to separate articles once they've grown beyond a few paragraphs. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:21, 4 May 2010 (EDT)

I don't like the idea of creating itineraries within the main article. I think it will make the article sloppy and disorganized. It would be a nightmare if multiple itineraries were being created in the same article. I much prefer just linking to the itinerary from the article. Generally, I don't think successful itineraries are created (or at least started) from consensus. I think they work best when one ambitious user creates the page and adds at least enough information to let other users see where it's going (if not creating it all themselves). Itineraries should come from personal travel experiences, I think. It is really difficult to know if it is feasible if you haven't done it yourself. That doesn't shut others out from editing the pages, but it's more useful to have a complete itinerary made by one user than a half-baked, hodge-podge itinerary created from "consensus". (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 19:48, 4 May 2010 (EDT)

It may even discourage people from creating itineraries. You can't give it much structure within the bounds of a region/city/country article without messing up the structure of the article. It also lends the page to a whole section of repeat information. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 19:58, 4 May 2010 (EDT)

I think this line of reasoning is out of line with our goals. We don't want articles consisting of just one person's vision or experience - and we do want articles based on consensus of many. If people want to describe their particular itinerary or trip, they should go to their blog site. And, I think the fact that most itineraries on WT are in fact half-baked would be a strong argument that we generally lack the kind of user who it going to put an itinerary together from scratch - even if this was desirable. And don't forget this guideline only applies to stubby/outline itineraries. If one person, in fact, does write a usable itinerary it is no longer an outline, and this guideline would not apply to it. --(WT-en) inas 20:40, 4 May 2010 (EDT)

This seems sensible on a number of fronts. To the arguments already put forward, I would add that it will encourage content in the most unloved articles at Wikivoyage. The vast majority of our region articles are little more than indexing vehicles. It would not take long to make a list of well developed examples. So yes, let's encourage itineraries in region articles. --(WT-en) Burmesedays 21:20, 4 May 2010 (EDT)

The principal downside to allowing stubby itineraries in our destination guides is that they will bring down the quality of the articles, as there is no limit to the potential worthless itineraries one could add. It's for that very reason that I like our policy of deleting languishing examples. I'd hate to see, for example, barely written itineraries like "30 days in x" appear in the see sections of our better region or huge city articles. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 23:30, 4 May 2010 (EDT)

Have we tried featuring itineraries on the Main Page? Currently, they can only be reached from the travel topic page. They're kind of hidden, so if we really want these to grow, we could try making them more visible.

Some of our itineraries are basically the same as destination articles, like Jomsom-Muktinath Trek and Tiger Leaping Gorge. For that reason, they wouldn't be bothersome in a regular article and a user who has been there and feels that they deserve their own articles could see them and create the article.

For the other, like Footloose in Old Delhi, Two weeks in Morocco, One week in Dominica, etc. they are just clutter on an article page that will likely never grow. They are completely arbitrary trips, so if the creator doesn't provide enough information to work with, there is no need to save them. They can always be recreated, but adding a "Footloose in Old Delhi" subheading to the Delhi page would look like a quick revert to me, and would we really want to waste time arguing over the potential value leaving it could have? (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 00:00, 5 May 2010 (EDT)

If it clearly adds little value, who's to say a quick revert isn't the best thing for it? Preferable, perhaps, to having it clutter the article space for a while, have someone stumble across it later, the outline tag added, then the vfd tag added a while later, followed by a vote, followed by a deletion. If the itinerary is really going to be the work of a single person, then there is always the option of developing it in their userspace until it is usable. If it is a start of a collaboration, then it is subject to the same reversion, modification as any other info in the article. --(WT-en) inas 01:49, 5 May 2010 (EDT)

The original idea at top of this section sounds good and reasonable, although personally I never created or edited a single itinerary--so it's very inexperienced point of view. --(WT-en) DenisYurkin 16:03, 6 May 2010 (EDT)

Is there a way that we don't implement this policy too literally, perhaps by a subjective usability criteria on a case by case basis? This was tagged with "outlineitinerary" today, which is OK by the policy, and which means it will be deleted by 2011 unless it's bumped to "usable", which I don't expect anytime soon, since it requires a very determined Wikivoyager hiking the whole 509-km trail and bringing back his/her notes. However, I see several issues with deleting that article, no matter if it's an outline or not: this trail is a very popular one, in fact a destination on its own, and I've heard of many people visiting Turkey just for the sake of hiking it. The articles goes into basics about trail marks, when best to walk, etc—all very helpful for hikers intending to do the trail. Further, even if it's an outline, it has one of the most, if not the most, detailed descriptions available in English for free about its first 15 or so km section (which is one of the most popular sections of the trail), in addition to a seperate but related 8-km long trail.

So, if just adding the names of villages and major sights along its route would make it a usable itinerary (that is what I gather from Project:Itinerary status), then fine, I'll try to search a little and come up with a list of them. However, I'm still in favour of adding a line to the policy about the subjective usability criteria I've aforementioned. – (WT-en) Vidimian 10:04, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

The policy states that an itinerary that doesn't move past outline status then it will be deleted, but it still has to go through the VFD process. The article you linked to looks like it is already at least "usable" to me, and I have a hard time believing that something with so much detail would gain a consensus to be deleted. This guideline was mainly created as a way to handle all of the random "itineraries" we get that never grow beyond 1-2 paragraphs. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 10:54, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

Actually, having now looked at a number of other itineraries that were tagged as "outline", I think we may either be being too strict with the status (example: Alaska Highway looks usable to me) or else we may need to revisit this policy; my original support was based on the idea that we need a way to clear out itineraries that weren't developed enough to allow others to work on them collaboratively (ie bare skeletons), but both Alaska Highway and Lycian Way seem to be well enough on their way as to be both usable now, and both are clear enough that others could add further detail without wondering what the original author's intent was. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:10, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

The reason why I have not tagged Lycian Way as usable is that further you move away from the western trailhead, less useful becomes the article—it's next to useless once you go past Kınık (or even Faralya). I think well-established and well-known trails and routes (like Lycian Way, Alaska Highway, or Baikal-Amur Mainline), i.e. those not put forward and named by Wikivoyagers, should be treated differently from "X in Z unit of time" itineraries, even if they are complete stubs. I wouldn't mind a note to communicate to the would-be creators of itinerary articles that "if you don't have anything else to say than "X is an itinerary between Y and Z", even if it's a well-established trail/route/etc, don't start the article.", though. – (WT-en) Vidimian 12:45, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

There was a discussion about this a while ago and it was agreed that itineraries of popular/famous/official travel routes are exempt from the one year vfd rule for the reason you stated. These are itineraries that we already know people actually do, rather than a suggested route like the "29 years in Lima"-type articles. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 16:00, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

FWIW, I read the itinerary article status criterion of a complete point-to-point listing of the itinerary's stops to mean simply that the main stops should be at the very least bullet pointed with names, if not full descriptions. As a rule, "usable" is not/should not be a very high hurdle for any article to pass. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:16, 22 June 2010 (EDT)

This discussion continues the #Itinerary Nursery discussion above, but is a proposal to be much stricter about what constitutes a valid subject for an itinerary article. There have been a number of articles created today (apparently as part of a school project) that seem to highlight a weakness in Wikivoyage's itinerary article criteria:

• A Long Weekend in London
• Weekend in Oranjestad, Aruba at The Tamarjin
• Four Days in Newport, Rhode Island
• A Weekend in Philly
• A Day Trip Through Allston
• Four Day Summer Family Trip in Lower Cape Cod
• A Day In Providence
• 3 Days in Block Island
• A Family Weekend in Newport (Summertime)‎
• Four Days in the New Hampshire White Mountains
• One Week of Adventure in Rhode Island
• Six Days in Historical New England

The current policy on itineraries is the following:

An itinerary is an article that describes a path through several destinations or attractions, giving suggestions of where to stop, what to see, how to prepare, etc. If you think of our destination guides as dots on a map, an itinerary describes a line that connects those dots.

The problem with this criteria is that:

• It encourages creation of articles with content that duplicates another article. There is nothing that would be placed in the A Long Weekend in London article that should not be in the existing London articles.
• It encourages creation of arbitrary articles that aren't collaborative. Only the original author knows what is meant to be included in the Four Day Summer Family Trip in Lower Cape Cod article.
• There is no clear criteria indicating when such articles are appropriate; A Weekend in Philly might be a good article, but why not also create "An afternoon in Philly, "Two weeks in Philly", "A month in Philly", etc?

I would propose the following change to the criteria for an itinerary article:

An itinerary article should be a guide for traveling along a specific route and not merely a suggested sightseeing schedule. Examples of good itinerary subjects are Route 66 (a historical path traveled by thousands each year) or The Wire Tour (a description of filming locations for a television show). Invalid itinerary topics would include One week in Sydney or Two months in Eastern Europe; information that would be included in such itineraries should instead be added to to the appropriate city or region articles.

A number of existing itinerary articles would need to be tagged for merging under this criteria, but in my opinion it would be a valuable clarification that would resolve a problematic gray area in Wikivoyage's current guidelines. Since this is a fairly major change to Wikivoyage's article criteria further comments are obviously needed and appreciated. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:03, 6 March 2012 (EST)

I'm inclined to support your suggestion. The problem I have with it is that it may result in the elimination of some good itinerary articles that now exist, but as a matter of policy, I think it's probably good, on balance. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:06, 6 March 2012 (EST)

Could you give an example of such an article? The proposal seems sound to me, and I can even see some of the mergers required improving the chronically anemic See/Do sections in regional articles. The likelihood of collateral damage seems sufficiently low.

Apparently the class that created all these itineraries has been taught before, as with One Week in South County, which highlights the expected fate of these articles otherwise: burst of activity for about a week from a user who then never contributes again, and with no further improvements to the itinerary-in-name-only. — (WT-en) D. Guillaime 01:21, 16 March 2012 (EDT)

I can't give an example off-hand of a good itinerary article that would be eliminated, and until I think of one, it's a weak Devil's advocate argument. (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 03:35, 16 March 2012 (EDT)

Three days in Singapore is an excellent article, and I would be in favor of keeping it if there is a way to do so without setting a precedent that new "X in Y Days" articles are encouraged - perhaps it could be kept because it has maps that explicitly call out the route being described? That article seems to be the (very) rare exception, with the vast majority of such articles simply being bullet point lists that duplicate the main article (at best). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:01, 16 March 2012 (EDT)

The articles listed above actually do not seem to follow even the current criteria with the exception of the Rhode Island one. That one should cover multiple destinations, but the others are within the same city and are not highlighting any particular aspect of touring the city that would be better outlined in an itinerary as opposed to the main city article. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 07:11, 8 March 2012 (EST)

I would happily support this. Good existing article content should be easy to merge, I think, because of the duplication noted by Ryan. I'd only add a link to one of our intra city walking itineraries, like Along the Magnificent Mile, since I think we should really be promoting that type of article more.--(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 18:37, 10 March 2012 (EST)

Would the following text (in addition to what's above) be sufficient to cover an article like Along the Magnificent Mile while still limiting the number of "X in Y days" articles?

Two questions that can help determine whether or not a subject is a good candidate for an itinerary article are the following:

1. Is the itinerary article about a specific route? Travelers can agree on what content would be included in an article such as Appalachian Trail, but it is completely subjective what should be included in articles such as "Ten days in Slovakia" or "A trip through historic sites in the American South".
2. Should the content in the itinerary article be covered elsewhere on Wikivoyage? An article such as "Visiting Boston's museums" would probably just duplicate content that should instead be placed in the main Boston articles.

In general, if there is any question whether a subject is a good itinerary topic or not, start out by including the information in the appropriate city or region article(s), and ask in the Pub whether a separate itinerary article makes sense.

-- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 23:51, 12 March 2012 (EDT)

I like that a lot. One question: Would or should it have any effect on travel topics like Touring prestigious universities in the U.S., that lack specific itineraries? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 23:57, 12 March 2012 (EDT)

That is a travel topic, which as you point out is not an itinerary but does not need to be one. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 06:56, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

As (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus notes, we'll probably still have a gray area with some travel topics, but at least this proposal should make it clearer what is a valid itinerary subject. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:55, 13 March 2012 (EDT)

(Re-indenting) If I'm reading the comments correctly thus far there hasn't been any disagreement, but given the small number of people who have commented it would be great to get additional opinions. Would anyone else be agreeable/opposed to the suggested changes to the itinerary article criteria? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 19:10, 19 March 2012 (EDT)

Anyone? Bueller? The proposed change seems like a worthwhile clarification, but isn't one that I'd be comfortable making without broader agreement. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:01, 24 March 2012 (EDT)

In principle, I like the idea of tightening up the criteria, getting rid of some that are useless, and heading off more. Text above is reasonable, but I'm not sure what's optimal.

How would A week near Hong Kong fare under these criteria? That's mostly by me, so of course I think worth preserving.

Or Shanghai_for_the_first-timer? That may be worth saving because Shanghai is such a huge complex place. (WT-en) Pashley 00:36, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Since they aren't about specific routes, the two articles you've highlighted would fail the "is the itinerary about a specific route" criteria and thus would be tagged for merging. Recognizing that there are some existing "X in Y time period" articles that are exceptional (Three days in Singapore being one), we could potentially specify a grace period in which existing articles could be re-worked to meet the new criteria - would three months be reasonable? -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:19, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Merging A week near Hong Kong into Pearl River Delta would be fairly straightforward. I'm not sure merging the Shanghai_for_the_first-timer article would work. (WT-en) Pashley 22:34, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Is Shanghai for the first-timer really an itinerary, or is it more of a travel topic? If it's the latter than the new criteria probably wouldn't apply. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 22:58, 25 March 2012 (EDT)

Support in principle. How about requiring a full itinerary article to follow a route through more than one destination. City tours could be treated like districts. Just a suggestion, I dont have particularly strong feelings on this, but agree that a report on one travellers relatively aimless wanderings does not justify an article. • • • (WT-en) Peter (Southwood) ^Talk 02:18, 28 March 2012 (EDT)

Peter raised the example of something like Along the Magnificent Mile, which is a walking tour within a single district of Chicago. Requiring multiple cities would eliminate articles like this one. Is there another criteria that would allow such articles but avoid opening the door to lots of "A five minute walking tour from 4th St. to Broadway in New York"? The "about a specific route" criteria would at least make get rid of the "X in Y Days" articles, but we may still end up with a number of itineraries that sit at outline status for a year before they fall into the "delete outline itineraries after a year of inactivity" criteria. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 22:18, 29 March 2012 (EDT)

Good afternoon, Wikivoyage authors/community. I write today to weigh in and provide a perspective on this that seems to be less articulated, but at least worth thinking about. Foremost, I want to thank the community at large for their patience with the writers who contribute to this "information ecology". As one of the instructors who teaches the class, I understand the frustrations that are often advanced in these talk pages, but would also suggest that our aims are benevolent when we ask students to enter this existing group of writers and find ways to make meaningful and valued contributions while following the practices, standards, and guidelines provided. Certainly some students are less successful in effecting those goals than others, but from a learning perspective, few assignments are as useful as this because these student-writers get exposure to real world audiences and get to see the ways that others understand, read, and vet the writing they perform. Recently, it has been increasingly difficult for authors to make contributions to articles, so we have decided to have writers begin expanding the itinerary section of Wikivoyage. Like the contributions in other areas, some writers are more successful than others. For example, what appears to me a stronger contribution. One example, of what some within the Wikivoyage community might perceive of as a less succssful contribution.

While I sense some frustration from the community that students are contributing as an assignment, I would argue that such contributions are at the very heart of what makes up the economies surrounding wikis. In principle, anyone can contribute and that is what makes these spaces so wonderful and special. We value the open economy and approach to information, and we hope to expose students to authoring in these environments. We expect and understand that there will be dissatisfaction when new-users fail to appropriately address the requirements/expectations of what counts as a "good" contribution. Yet, at the same time, this is part of learning the genre/environment, and we hope that we foster writers who will mature to be productive contributors to this wiki.

Still, one aspect of this debate (specifically found on this page), surrounds what constitutes/should constitute an itinerary in Wikivoyage. In other words, the discussion in some ways surrounds what elements surround the genre. From a rhetorical perspective, genre is a slippery concept/entity. It is both a container and a set of embodied, evolving relationships that writers enact as they perceived what information should fit within a specific container. This is why it seems there is difficulty saying what types of itineraries should be done away with, as well as which types should be perserved. I concur that when contributions are less developed, such additions should be moved/deleted/cleaned up. However, I would suggest that perhaps allowing for multiple understandings of what itinerary might mean could be a productive and useful stance for this community. Specifically, there is debate on the talk page about the contributions that have been made the to the Fenway by Foot itinerary. In concept, I think that this could be a strong notion of itinerary--in practice, I understand that perhaps there is too fine-grained a view of this place, and perhaps the development of the "path" through the place could be refined and expanded upon. But, to merely state that no itineraries should exist on a single location seems, in my view, to reify a significant potential number of what could be creative and useful additions to this page. Just as some of the itineraries are tailored with a temporal focus (four days in X) and some have a specific slant for a specific audience (three days in X with children), does not mean that such contributions are not itineraries but that these writers understand itinerary as a complex genre that can be oriented to focus more attention to 'place', temporarily, or audience. Those are the question that reside at the heart of these disagreements: Should Wikivoyage's understanding of itinerary emphasize only one of these potential ways of organizing information within the "container" that makes up the data that resides in these itineraries? Perhaps, they should, but each choice will certainly have consequences on for how information is then framed here, and those decisions will reflect assumptions the community at large has about the ways in which they understand place and travels through it. I for one, as a frequent user of this site, value the multiple ways of constructing a way through these places, and would argue for an inclusive view of itinerary as is possible. Why not? Perhaps even consider organizing itineraries differently? Itineraries for specific audiences (parents/families; (non)-drinkers; (non)drivers; bike riders) might be one way of listing/subordinating a growing list of itineraries and it might be a way of attracting more users to the site. Ultimately what good is a text if it doesn't provide information that audiences use and might find useful? And, given the myriad ways that people differ, how can we make assumptions that all audiences will value the same type of information. In think some of the disruption/debate here is useful and good in that regard--it enables and demonstrates the type of complex ways that "we" think about what this Wiki should be. And, what types of values surround who contributes and how they contribute.

That is why it's difficult to say, hard and fast, which type of itinerary should stay and which should go. The best itineraries, however, will provide some information that a real audience would benefit from reading. And, granted some of that information might be better placed in article pages, themselves. I, thank you all for you consideration of these ideas, and for the patience you extend to the students who visit and write here. Some, I know, become regular contributors to this and other wikis, and often this class is their entry into the participatory web.

Tim

Hi Tim. This conversation is veering a bit off course, in dealing with how best to have classes contribute, rather than the question at hand of what exactly we mean by (i.e., are looking for in the term) "itinerary." The problem with the "X period in Y destination" articles is that they are not travel guides—they are essentially essays, and that is something Wikivoyage is not for. (We were working on a branch of Wikivoyage, Wikivoyage Extra , which would have been better suited for this, but that has fallen by the wayside.) It is awesome to have students participating here, but it might be useful for the assignment to go back to basics (check out Project:Ways to help Wikivoyage), and to understand that the nature of this site is not conducive to each student creating their own article for grading. Also, try soliciting feedback in the pub from other users as to how to best get your students contributing—I'm sure people would have good suggestions, which would help decrease the likelihood of, say, your students articles getting outright deleted for straying from the scope of our goals and policies.

Back to the policy change suggested here, though, I'd just like to voice my support once more for Ryan's new wording. I do plan travel itineraries professionally, and could write a great "Two days in D.C." article, but the whole point of such work is to tailor it for a specific person/group. Written to the anonymous online mass, these are too tightly prescriptive to be useful, and potentially distract from what our site is about. --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 22:25, 2 April 2012 (EDT)

(Re-indenting) Peter said most of what I would have responded with, but to reiterate, having students contribute here is a great thing, although asking them to each create a brand new article on a site that already covers 26,000 destinations is problematic. As Peter noted, a conversation in the Pub about how best to model a student assignment would be very welcome. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 22:41, 2 April 2012 (EDT)

If I'm reading the above discussion we seem to have consensus for a change. Are there any further comments on the following proposed text?

An itinerary article should be a guide for traveling along a specific route and not merely a suggested sightseeing schedule. Examples of good itinerary subjects are Route 66 (a historical path traveled by thousands each year) or The Wire Tour (a guide for visiting filming locations for a television show). Invalid itinerary topics would include One week in Sydney or Two months in Eastern Europe; information that would be included in such itineraries should instead be added to to the appropriate city or region articles.

Two questions that can help determine whether or not a subject is a good candidate for an itinerary article are the following:

1. Is the itinerary article about a specific route? Travelers can agree on what content would be included in an article such as Appalachian Trail, but it is completely subjective what should be included in articles such as "Ten days in Slovakia" or "A trip through historic sites in the American South".
2. Should the content in the itinerary article be covered elsewhere on Wikivoyage? An article such as "Visiting Boston's museums" would probably just duplicate content that should instead be placed in the main Boston articles.

In general, if there is any question whether a subject is a good itinerary topic or not, start out by first including the information in the appropriate city or region article(s), and ask in the Pub whether a separate itinerary article makes sense.

-- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 00:35, 6 April 2012 (EDT)

I again voice support, this time for the new language, which improves on the previous version.

I will offer one new caveat, though: What happens if all the non-conforming itineraries are simply redefined as travel topics, without further editing? In other words, don't we have to anticipate a problem with the remaining loophole? (WT-en) Ikan Kekek 01:59, 6 April 2012 (EDT)

Hopefully this discussion at least sets a precedent that any "X in Y time period" article is not a travel topic, but the definition of what *is* a travel topic could probably use further clarification. I think we'll probably also need to consider either grandfathering or re-working a small percentage of the existing itinerary articles - for example, it would be a shame to tag a great article like Three days in Singapore for merging, but at the same time I'd hate to have that article be used as justification for why more "X in Y days" articles should be allowed. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:57, 6 April 2012 (EDT)

Being the lame person that I am, I would like to make the simple request that the examples include geographical diversity. For example, if we use the Appalachian Trail, then change the "A trip through the historic sites in the American South" to "Cultural Tour of West Africa", "Best of Bhutan", or whatever, and then also change the museum example to some other city with a lot of museums (Beijing, Cairo, Athens, Mexico City, etc. (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus 11:24, 8 April 2012 (EDT)

I've updated Project:Itineraries per the discussion above, with the changes suggested by (WT-en) ChubbyWimbus incorporated (feel free to change for further geographic diversity as desired). As noted at the beginning of this discussion there are a number of existing itinerary articles that should be tagged for merging under the new criteria, although I'd also suggest we consider grandfathering in a small handful of exceptional itineraries that might not meet the new criteria (such as Three days in Singapore) on a case-by-case basis. For "Three days in Singapore", it has maps and is a guide (if not star) quality article, and it would be a shame to lose it at this point. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 13:04, 8 April 2012 (EDT)

I apologize for not being aware of this discussion earlier; this page is not on my watchlist!

It seems to me there are two problems we are primarily trying to solve here. First, that itineraries are often written/designed in such a way that they are difficult to improve for anyone who is not the primary author. These articles are not well suited to the wiki environment, and thus not well suited to Wikivoyage. Second, that many itineraries' subjects are arbitrary (an arbitrary number of days in a particular community, or an arbitrary route through a large region), allowing an infinite number of variations to the point of redundancy.

The new rules certainly solve those two problems, but as noted, cause additional ones due to their applicability to excellent itineraries we'd like to keep. So if we want to keep those articles, we have to determine what makes them different from the ones we don't want. Is it just quality? Then it is unfair to say "no 'X days in Y location' articles, period", because any such new article might be carefully tended and grow in the future to become just as good as Three days in Singapore. Is there some other quality of the articles we want to keep that would help us distinguish them?

Perhaps, since we already have a "usable within a year or delete" rule for all itineraries, what if we tightened it to "guide within a year or merge" for "arbitrary" itineraries (ones that don't follow a specific known route or are otherwise not conducive to collaboration)? Would that satisfy all of the goals?

-- (WT-en) LtPowers 12:04, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

I would be hesitant to re-adopt a policy that keeps the door to these sorts of articles open - while Three days in Singapore may be a great article, the vast majority (95+ percent) of these types of articles would be merge candidates under the "guide within a year" criteria, based on a perusal of List of itineraries. Even the Three days in Singapore article would probably be a merge candidate if it didn't have maps since it would fail the "about a specific route" criteria, and thus be hugely difficult to collaborate on.

For the reasons discussed in the thread above, the new criteria seem to be a positive change. If someone really does want to do a "X in Y days" article they can make an argument for it, and I suspect that a map and an edit history that demonstrates a pattern of finishing articles would probably be enough to convince others of the value of such an article. To my mind that's a far better situation than allowing anyone to start any arbitrary article, which splits up content that belongs in destination guides and leaves it to other contributors to then do the tedious task of merging after waiting for twelve months. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 12:49, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

Well, not to be too contrary, but who's going to go to the trouble of making a map for an itinerary that we might not let them work on? I thought you were looking for a way to render the policy to justify keeping Three days in Singapore, but any such rule is going to have to also allow other good itineraries to stay. (WT-en) LtPowers 14:28, 9 April 2012 (EDT)

An argument could be made that Three days in Singapore meets the new criteria since the maps identify a specific route, which I think would justify keeping it. As to "who's going to the trouble of making a map for an itinerary that we might not let them work on", I think that's inherent in the new guidelines - new itineraries should be about a recognized route, and if someone REALLY wants to create an itinerary that is not about a recognized route then it is up to them to find a way to meet that criteria. The alternative is that we continue to allow itineraries that don't easily lend themselves to collaboration. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:53, 10 April 2012 (EDT)

As more of a reader than an editor here, I've found these "X in Y day(s)" itineraries to be very helpful. Even if they are not to be followed specifically, they aid in trip planning since articles on individual cities fail to prioritize the sights - and the longer the article, to more "unimportant" sights a short term traveler will have to sift through. On a 2 day trip to Chicago a couple weeks ago I used Along the Magnificent Mile, not following it exactly, but following it in general to make sure I didn't skip anything important with my limited time there. It is good to have rules, but it is bad to have rules that prioritize consistency over purpose. Any city article in any major tourist guidebook will tell you what you can do in X number of days. Why can't Wikivoyage do the same just because it is collaboratively edited? Without replacement guidelines on how to incorporate ideas on priorities within cities in the city articles to fill the void, Wikivoyage is reducing its effectiveness in removing "X in Y day(s)" itineraries. If something were a real priority (i.e. visit the Art Institute in Chicago), then you'd think enough people would agree on it that collaborative editing would not get in the way of it appearing in an itinerary. Three days in Singapore (parts of which I've relied on while in Singapore a few months ago) makes specific restaurant recommendations. Editor opinions like these are useful, and just because there is the potential for disagreement on editor preferences does not mean information like this should be removed entirely. It should only be removed (or augmented) when there is, ahem, a disagreement.

Now to the problem that different people have different preferences on what to do in a specific period of time - why not create some sort of itinerary purgatory? Draft the articles off the main namespace and enact some sort of approval process. If the problem is with quality, just enact more stringent quality controls, rather than flushing out the good with the bad.--(WT-en) Jiang 13:25, 10 April 2012 (EDT)

Another thought. If I understand correctly, the change in policy is based on the rationale that different editors can have totally irreconcilable ideas on the same topic. The cure can be to limit the geographical scope to an itinerary to match the time given to complete the itinerary. Say City A is a big city, and it takes 4 days to hit the famous tourist highlights. The rule should then be that the time for "x days in City A" as an itinerary should be roughly x=4, and there should be no articles about "One day in City A" or "Two days in City A" because the short time, coupled with what editors deem to be priorities in such a large geographical scope (relative to 1 day or 2 days) will force too many judgment calls based on personal preference. But if you extend the time scope to 4 days, and limit the geographical scope to the borders of City A, then those familiar with City A will generally hold some sort of reasoned wisdom as to what should be seen in 4 days.

Again, if you make a blanket rule saying that no itineraries should tell people how to prioritize their time within a limited geographical area, then I would have to head to Frommers, which does a relatively crappy job most of the time.

Lonely Planet gives me another idea: why not just put a text box to the side of the main article, stating what highlights to hit within Y number of days. Relative to having itinerary articles though, information is still lost. I would have to head to google maps to figure how to get from one place to another, without having that information in accessible form right in front of me.--(WT-en) Jiang 20:44, 10 April 2012 (EDT)

There are comments that somewhat address your concerns further above in this thread, but to respond to your specific point, why wouldn't the main article just contain pointers in the "See" and "Do" sections? The Chicago article highlights some of the "must see" items for Chicago, and Chicago district articles then go into greater detail. In addition to making sure itineraries are collaborative ("about a recognized route"), a second goal of this change is to encourage content to be placed into the destination articles rather than split into multiple itinerary articles. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 21:11, 10 April 2012 (EDT)

Yet we still have Along the Magnificent Mile, which goes into greater detail on the sights and sounds and scheduling than would be appropriate for Chicago or even one of the district articles through which the route passes. (WT-en) LtPowers 10:53, 12 April 2012 (EDT)

Over at Talk:One week in Sydney#Merge tag we have a debate over merging of a possibly problematic intinerary, citing policy from this page. There are problems with such a merge.

First off, it will irritate a contributor who has put a fair bit of work into the article. Irritating contributors seems clearly to be something we don't want to do unless it is really necessary, and I am not certain this is.

Second, there is a difficult trade-off involved. Moving everything from this article into the Sydney article might make that article complex and unreadable, clutter it up with things not all visitors need. On the other hand, if we move only some of it then trash this article, we may lose things that would actually be useful to some travellers. (WT-en) Pashley 01:25, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

I think all of the reasons originally discussed for making the change to the itinerary article criteria (and that are now outlined in the policy) hold true, and those reasons should be considered in this discussion. However, the argument that we don't want to "irritate a contributor who has put a fair bit of work into the article" is a very strong one, and the intent of starting a discussion on that article's talk page was to hopefully steer the contributor towards something that is more obviously a valid itinerary article. With that said, the primary goal of Wikivoyage is to create a useful worldwide travel guide, and literally thousands of comments and discussions have gone into finding a consensus for best achieving that goal; how to organize and present information has been a core component of those discussions, and there is clearly concern about splitting content into arbitrary articles. -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 01:44, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

A wiki is a collaboration. Articles in this form tend to be a shrine to a single user, it isn't and never can be a collaboration.

As far as User:(WT-en) JRG is concerned, he/she is an old hand at this, and I'm sure is more than capable of putting their best case forward for the article to be maintained. If you want you work to be preserved as monument to your effort, then a wiki isn't really for you. --(WT-en) Inas 01:58, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

I've commented on the talk page over there. The point of the article (which was started before the "policy" came into place) was to I suppose "summarise" some of the information and put together a useful collection of materials for a very large city to make a usable itinerary. The Sydney page is enormous and there are about 12 subpages under that. How is any lay reader of Wikivoyage even supposed to understand where to start (besides the well-known tourist attractions)? In no way is it supposed to be a personal page and I'm happy for it to be edited (except no one is doing that for Sydney these days, and even I have little time to help), but I will really be cranky if it is merged simply because of policy by people who have had no input into the article and who don't understand why it was created.

By the way, the idea for this was based on Three days in Singapore, which I understand was a usable or starred article at one point. (WT-en) JRG 02:19, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

It's great that you're happy for it to be edited, but how would that work? What if someone argues that an attraction you called out is not worth anyone's time and recommends something else as a replacement? How does that conflict get resolved? On the other side of the coin, does removing this well-written article actually improve the site? Isn't this article useful, and its content too voluminous to merge? The traveler comes first; if this article is useful for the traveler, and the author is not exerting editorial control, why remove it? (WT-en) LtPowers 10:02, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

Responding to (WT-en) JRG, Three days in Singapore was actually cited during the original discussion about changing the policy as the very rare example of a good "X in Y Days" article, and the policy was crafted to try to grandfather that article in - that article calls out specific routes and includes maps of those routes, so the scope of the article becomes very well defined. I'm sympathetic to the amount of work that has gone into the new Sydney article and would probably support making an exception to policy in order to keep it as another rare example of a good "X in Y Days" itinerary article, but please understand that the intent of the policy change was to ensure that content is put where users are most likely to look (in this case, the city and district articles), and to make sure content is organized in a way that is collaborative (as noted by (WT-en) LtPowers, only the original author knows what is meant to be included in a "X in Y Days" article). -- (WT-en) Ryan • (talk) • 11:05, 8 June 2012 (EDT)

I wrote the suggested day itineraries on the talk page, they have been there for comment since the beginning and I'm open to hearing what people want to include. I've made some changes to what I wanted from the beginning (e.g. the itinerary currently excludes Bondi Beach, which is probably a place many tourists want to see). I agree that many itineraries can be covered in normal place articles, however some large places with lots to do and lots of sub-districts (I'm thinking the likes of London, New York, Sydney, etc. - large spread out places with lots of tourist attractions) it might be ok to have an itinerary page to summarise some of the places that people can visit. (WT-en) JRG 23:33, 10 June 2012 (EDT)

But isn't that what the See section of the main article is for? --(WT-en) Peter ^Talk 20:18, 11 June 2012 (EDT)

(Re-indenting) Only being aware of this discussion now, I heavily oppose the current wording, if not the idea at all. Why would we want to remove valuable articles like One day in Bangkok, Yaowarat and Phahurat Tour, Along the Magnificent Mile, Three days in Singapore, or pretty much every itinerary for that matter? Cities like Bangkok are huge, with a lot to do in many different districts. One could say—"the relevant information is already in the See, Eat, etc articles." I disagree with that. The See, Eat and Drink sections give overall information about attractions and restaurants in a city in prose. An itinerary suggests a route from A to B using specific listings from the district articles. They are basically for the lazy traveller who does not want to spit through all the listings descriptions of all sub-pages, but just wants to follow a set path that is recommended by another traveller. Itineraries are "personal" by nature, so prohibiting "personal itineraries" doesn't make sense. If we'd be demoting itineraries to only using tourist bureau-signed trails like the Appalachian Trail, we might as well call them travel topics and remove itineraries altogether.

Imagine a user starts writing an itinerary and stops somewhere in the middle of it. Two things could happen:

1. Our policy already states that if the itinerary article is not in a usable status, it will be removed after one year.
2. If the itinerary is usable, then why remove it? Apparently it is useful information for travellers. Other travellers could expand or improve upon given information. One day in Bangkok was started by one user, but improved upon by other users to its current state.

I'd say if someone starts an article with "Three weeks in Slovakia" and then doesn't complete it within one year, it should have an "outline" status and should be removed. Our previous policy already dealt with issues like these, however I do believe we should enforce it more properly. --Globe-trotter (talk) 13:33, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

This is a very difficult issue, and I'm still undecided on my stance. I can understand the idea behind the current policy. We don't want to end up with Singapore in an hour, a day, 3 days, a week, 2 weeks and a month. Where do we draw the line? And is this just duplicating content from the main article?

But then again, I used the Three days in Singapore itinerary for a holiday I am planning in the near future and found it quite helpful. Something normal Wikivoyage articles don't do well is highlight the best tourist attractions and which ones visitors should prioritise. When written in a list, policy states they should be alphabetical and must-see attractions are often mixed in with "if-you-have-spare-time" attractions. The itineraries which have been outlawed often do a great job of letting you know what you must see before you leave! JamesA ^>talk 14:13, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

I disagree with Globe-trotter's interpretation of the policy a bit. Any article with an actual route would still be fine. Being an occasionally pragmatic bunch, I think we agreed to preserve any really good X time in Y articles (i.e., Three days in Singapore). Overwhelmingly, though, the X time in Y articles are really bad and don't do a good job at all of appealing to a diverse group of travelers. One way of handling this by policy, rather than trusting ourselves to be pragmatic, would be to have a much stricter threshold for keeping X in Y itineraries? Make it guide status? --Peter ^Talk 15:28, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

I agree that many of those articles are of appalling quality, but I think they should just be merged and redirected following the policy we already had in place. Having different policies for already established articles and new articles strikes me as unfair, even if this could be pragmatic. Following current policy guidelines, all star itineraries would have to be removed, just like well-developed articles like One day in Bangkok (which is tagged with deletion).

Itineraries are other ways of seeing travel, by time instead of by location. It is a completely different way of presenting information than the destination articles do. I think that if someone wants to create a new "One day in..." article, that should be encouraged, as long as it is turned into something useful within a year. I would also be okay with requiring it to be guide status within a year to be kept. But I'm heavily opposed to not allowing "personal" itineraries. At least 90% of itineraries on Wikivoyage are "personal", except for those few itineraries that have well-defined paths with signs placed along them (like Appalachian Trail or Route 66). Removing all personal itineraries would pretty much mean the end of the itineraries category as we know it. --Globe-trotter (talk) 15:54, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

(ec)I also think there's a place for well-written "personal" itineraries. JamesA captured my thoughts well -- the good ones separate the must sees from the if-you-have-spare-times, something I personally think our guides don't usually do a very good job of. Requiring guide status after one year works for me. -Shaund (talk) 15:58, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

Agree. The articles about big cities always blur the significance of attractions. I enjoy our content on London, but it is not suited for a first-time visitor. It will be sad to remove all relevant itineraries, so we should rather develop a tough policy. The requirements could be:

• Guide status in one year (as suggested)
• Map(s)!
• "Personal" itineraries are allowed only for big cities with districts and at least usable status.
• Only one itinerary per city, i.e., when we have "1 day" we no longer need "2 days" or "3 days" or "afternoon". As long as each itinerary is supposed to be a selection of major attractions (which are, as usual, subject to discussions and consensus), the exact time frame does not mater. We could also think about renaming the existing itineraries, because the time frame depends on a person. Travelers have different pace...
• The requirement of having a well-defined route should be fulfilled

Personally, I believe that the title likes "One day in" or "Two days in" should be discouraged. Each itinerary can be easily shortened to one day or even half a day by skipping museums and the like. The time frame also depends on the season. Unless you are in Bangkok or Singapore, the short winter day gives you 30-50% less time than the long day in summer, and it really matters.

-- Atsirlin (talk) 16:39, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

It's possible that the current phrasing on the policy page does not really represent the intent of the change (which I did and still do support). The real point is just that the itinerary should have... a route, not merely suggestions for day 1, day 2, etc. --Peter ^Talk 01:29, 20 September 2012 (CEST)

Also, as there clearly is a clarification issue here, I would certainly hold off on adding (or even just remove) all those merge/delete tags. --Peter ^Talk 01:30, 20 September 2012 (CEST)

[re-indent] Having read through many (but not all) of the comments, it seems pretty clear that fixed routes (Annapurna Circuit, or Alaska Highway) aren't a big issue, except when they may be too long/unwieldy, but that time-based itineraries and vague point A to point B itineraries are rather contentious. Here's a couple ideas to fix these issues (sorry if some examples are too US/North America-specific):

• Route too long — like Trans-Canada Highway, Route 66, Appalachian Trail — Create a new form of travel topic, routes, which would include general background, travel tips, practicalities, etc on the main page. For more specific information, divide the route into segments that become separate pages (think of how cities are divided into districts). On Wikipedia, major routes (like Interstate highways, I-95 or I-40) are divided into sections by state. Here on Wikivoyage, a route like Route 66 would have a main page, featuring historical info and practical info (description of current route, route map & pertinent safety/travel info). Then, segment pages (by political boundary...state...or regional...multi-state) which contain the detailed info, like the actual highways used (with tips, like "heading east, Route 66 splits to the left when entering Town A"), attractions along the route in some detail, and maybe a header with iconic eat/sleep/fuel listings (but a box at the beginning of the section reiterating that listing belong in city/town pages). The Route 66 Wikipedia page is a good example, great info, with specifics on pages by state (under "Route facts", example w:U.S. Route 66 in Arizona). With the example of the Appalachian Trail, the main page would discuss practicalities for the whole route, while segment pages would go into detail with info on route (distances, GPS waypoints, elevation, camping locations, local hazards, etc).

• Routes too vague — like Silk Road, Istanbul to New Delhi over land, Along the Yellow River — There need to be specific criteria for vague routes to exist. Criteria I can think of are:

• Historic routes such as the Silk Road & Hippie Trail (which is what Istanbul to New Delhi over land is). A historic route would have sections on history, a description of common elements (if any) of the route, practicalities, general route description, and safety. If necessary, segments could be separated out onto another page. A great example of this would be the Silk Road, which lures many adventurous travelers still today. While we may not need encyclopedic detail like Wikipedia, a good history section would be the start; Route Overview (a new section) would cover the people, climates, topography, cultures, and various common aspects of the route (caravansaries, chaikhanas [teahouses], and stuff you can still do/see that are relics...like buying porcelain or lapis jewelry); Prepare would cover practicalities to cover the whole route (visas, and special traveler issues...like navigating around Turkmenistan/Iran, which are difficult to get visas for, and good places to begin/end travel along segments); a route description (ideally in paragraph form and full of links to city/town pages); and end with various safety/cope/stay healthy info. Separate pages can be created to go into more detail along the route, which for the Silk Road would probably be between major cities (or former major cities) on the route rather than national boundaries, such as "Silk Road: Xi'an to Kashgar" and "Silk Road:Kokand to Merv".

• Navigation corridors (best wording I can come up with) that may warrant special attention — The most common example would be travel along rivers. Some rivers, like the Danube, Volga, and Yellow, are common itineraries for travelers and it makes sense to describe them as routes, describing common elements (riverboats, landscapes, history) and the route; as opposed to otherwise using the map on a regional/country page to figure out yourself which villages/towns lie along the route. I don't see any examples in our current list of itineraries, but I also think there can be appropriate circumstances where there is a common way of traveling through a region where writing an itinerary would be appropriate (like "National Route X across the ABC Mountains"). Detailed listings would go/remain in the city/town pages. This can also cover travel between two places by less-common means or a less common route, such as Russia to Japan via Sakhalin, but only when there are limited options (too many options and it becomes opinion/too broad and should be treated as opinion—see sugestion for time-based itineraries below).

• Commonly-traveled routes would focus on the practicalities of getting from Point A to Point B and could be grouped together with "Navigation corridors" above, but may deserve slightly different treatment in that little/no info is given about sights/attractions and these guides simply focus on routes and there practicalities. Examples of this would be Pan-American Highway, Cairo to Nairobi overland (a common path, with only a couple main routes to travel by), Europe to South Asia over land (too broad to cover sights/attractions along the way, but a common path for travelers), and Overland to Tibet (again, too broad for sights/attractions, but a helpful topic for travelers).

• Contentious/subjective topics (namely "X Days in Such-and-such City"). This has obviously been the most difficult topic to discuss. As far as only allowing one such itinerary per city (per time period), there are far too many ways to write "2 days in London" and I don't like the idea of limiting ourselves to just one. But when we have "2/3/4/5/6/7 days in London" pages, it borders on absurd. My idea for this is to allow many versions of each and set up a rating system and allow others to vote on the quality of a guide. So, 20 different users write "One week in New York City". Criteria would be set for ranking user-generated itineraries. Only those itineraries which reach "guide" status would get a tag on them, putting them into a special category. The public would be able to view a category (say {{Itineraries:London}}) which displays all user-generated itineraries that are at guide level for a particular city/region/country. A link in the sidebar or a box on the destination page (like the commons box on WP pages) would point the general public (anyone who reads Wikivoyage, not just us editors in-the-know) to these itineraries. On the category page of user-generated itineraries, there would be a link at the bottom to all itineraries for that destination, just so that they can be seen. The biggest issue would be naming and possible confusion. My preference would be tacking on the user's name at the end ("3 Days in Hong Kong by AHeneen"). The link at the bottom of a destination page or in a box might be "Wikivoyage has suggested itineraries for a visit to Chicago. See {{Itineraries:Chicago}}." I think this would be a great asset to Wikivoyage in that we expand choices for our readers (that's any person stopping by for travel advice, whether familiar with wikis or not). Should any itineraries reach "Star" status, they should be linked to on the destination article. AHeneen (talk) 07:20, 15 November 2012 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

A merge tag has been placed on many itineraries, such as One day in Bangkok, One week in Eastern Tasmania, A week in Sheki, etc. Has there been some kind of policy discussion I am unaware of? I don't see how these articles would breach the criteria for being a separate article. --Globe-trotter (talk) 02:20, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

Yes, from back in March/April following a sudden surge (apparent class project) in skeletal itinerary articles: the discussion is here, and the revised policy is Wikivoyage:Itineraries#"Personal" itineraries. — D. Guillaume (talk) 03:25, 19 September 2012 (CEST)

Swept in from the pub

Hi. I thought about contributing to the site before really looking at it and I had the idea of starting something like "George Orwell's Barcelona", which would basically be an itinerary for a walking tour of the city going past key locations in Orwell's book Homage to Catalonia, with context info and photos. Looking at the policies, though, I'm not sure if this is a type of article that would be OK. Would it? FormerIP (talk) 23:36, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Not only do I think it would be okay per our policies, I'd actually be eager to read it (I'm an Orwell fan). Plunge forward. If other editors have a problem with the article, they'll make it known and you can hammer out a consensus as to its future direction. But speaking from my own experiences, I doubt very much that will be the case. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 23:46, 16 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, that sounds fantastic! Some good itineraries you might want to look to as models include Yaowarat and Phahurat Tour, Loop Art Tour, and The Wire Tour—if you've already watched the show, that is. --Peter ^Talk 01:02, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

We have a stub Literary travel where you might add a link, and articles like Literary London and Marco Polo which might serve as examples as well. Pashley (talk) 01:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Reading Wikivoyage:Itineraries before, I was also inclined to believe such an itinerary isn't allowed. We need to change the wording of it. Globe-trotter (talk) 01:41, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

What in the article gives you that impression? I mean, The Wire Tour is the most prominent example there, and it's a tour of filming locations. --Peter ^Talk 02:10, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Some old discussion: Wikivoyage talk:Other ways of seeing travel#City Theme Pages Pashley (talk) 02:13, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

The usual pitfall with local itinerary is to write A day in Dullsville in such a way as to merely create a duplicate of the main Dullsville article, listing all of the same attractions. Certainly, an itinerary can give more flexibility as a means for a journey to follow a theme (we have many itineraries like Across Canada by rail / Across the US by rail, as well as themes retracing US Route 66 or the Titanic maiden voyage). These can work well if there are clear criteria for what is included and some sort of natural sequence to the trip, instead of merely repeating what's in the city article. If w:The Grapes of Wrath were an itinerary, for instance, it would start in Oklahoma and head westward to California with brief stops in every town mentioned in the book. K7L (talk) 02:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the responses. I will start on a userpage draft soon-ish. FormerIP (talk) 13:49, 18 January 2013 (UTC)Reply

I'm wondering if a page like Kentucky Bourbon Distilleries Tours would count as an itinerary. There is an official Kentucky Bourbon Trail consisting of just 7 distilleries, although there are a handful of other distilleries that aren't part of the official Trail.

But the trail isn't in order; it's just a list of 7 places. Does it still count as an itinerary? --Bigpeteb (talk) 17:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, an itinerary needs an order. Otherwise it's just a list. A good itinerary would tell travelers how to get from one distillery to the next, and provide information on the other attractions and amenities along the way. LtPowers (talk) 18:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

All that would need to be done, then, would be to put them in order. But I think that KY distilleries might be better covered as a more free-form Travel topic. --Peter ^Talk 18:29, 17 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

Geographically, it should be possible to go (east to west) Maysville, Lexington, Versailles, Lawrenceburg, Lebanon, Loretto, Bardstown, Clermont, Bowling Green, Pembroke, Hardin as an itinerary. Then again, there's nothing wrong with adding an optional side trip or two if an itinerary almost but not quite falls into a line (Trans-Canada Highway was built as a system with marked alternates for side trips to places like Charlottetown, Route 66 travellers often left the route entirely to see the Grand Canyon, a trip through Toronto as itinerary might have a side trip which sidetracks to Niagara...)

Underground Railroad is awkward as there is deliberately no one clear single "main" route but falls largely into an east-west line. K7L (talk) 21:45, 17 April 2013 (UTC)Reply

We don't have a single itinerary article yet on Sri Lanka. I'm planning to go Sri Lanka soon and would visit all the eight inscribed World Heritage Sites in the country. May I know if it would be allowed here on WV to write my travelling as an itinerary article? --Saqib (talk) 22:25, 6 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Is there some obvious and large advantage to visiting them in the same order? Texugo (talk) 15:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Didn't understand what you meant. --Saqib (talk) 15:44, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

I mean, is there a reason why the order in which you have chosen to visit the places is obviously better than any other possible order? Are the places arranged in a ring or something? Texugo (talk) 15:49, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Yes, my itinerary is arrange in ring and I'll choose to travel around either on bike or using local transport such as bus, train or rickshaw which means it will be a budget tour as well. --Saqib (talk) 15:58, 7 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Sounds good. There are some itineraries in Japan that are along those lines and might give you ideas, 88 Temple Pilgrimage and World Heritage Tour in Nara. Some text might go in destination articles or in Sacred sites of the Indian sub-continent rather than in the itinerary; you can figure that out as you go along.

Sri Lanka has excellent sapphires or for a more limited budget, good moonstones and fine batiks. If you want to bring some home for your wife, you may need a little research before you go. Pashley (talk) 01:22, 8 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Pashley, will you please elaborate which text will go in destination articles? Btw, thanks for your suggestion. --Saqib (talk) 17:39, 9 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

When writing about something as diverse as different World Heritage Sites I would personally just write a brief description of each destination in the itinerary itself (what the site is and the most important things to see there) and put more detailed information in the destinations' own articles. For an itinerary article it's almost more important how to get from one place to the next one. I looked up the location of the sites using Wikipedia's coordinates and they seem to be situated along a line from Galle in south to Anuradhapura in north (Galle/Sinharaja/Kandy/Central Highlands/Dambulla/Sigiriya/Polonnaruwa (a little "sidetrip" to the east)/Anuradhapura). Therefore I don't know if it's necessary to make a circle itinerary, but if you do that the best solution would probably be to connect both ends to Colombo because I think most people arrive in and leave Sri Lanka from Colombo's airport. Another thing, when I saw your question in the Tourist Office I took a look at Sri Lanka's article and some destinations and most of them definitely need to be expanded (and a cleanup). So: enjoy your trip and hopefully you'll have a lot of valuable information to add when you're back! ϒpsilon (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

ϒpsilon, I thought you're in Sri Lanka when I saw you editing Sri Lankan article pages. As you can see here, I've already started my article and the journey starts from Colombo and will probably ends in Colombo. Feel free to copyedit my itinerary from time to time. --Saqib (talk) 07:22, 10 August 2013 (UTC)Reply

Swept in from the pub

I'm not opposed to merging or deleting them, but I'd like the text at Wikivoyage:Itineraries to be elaborated to clarify where the boundary lies between itineraries that are allowable and those that are too personalized.

The reason I'm concerned is that I eventually plan on writing several itineraries for self-guided architectural walking tours of various Buffalo neighborhoods, which seems to me to be in a gray area: neither the fact that many buildings of great architectural distinction are located in Buffalo nor that architecture buffs constitute a large and growing proportion of visitors to the area are in dispute, and the material I envision including is probably too specialized to include in Buffalo or any of the district articles. But the selection of which points of interest to include is, to some degree, a matter of personal taste.

I'm posting this in the pub rather than at Wikivoyage talk:Votes for deletion because this touches on a larger policy issue rather than any individual article that's nominated, or at Wikivoyage talk:Itineraries as the discussion would likely languish in obscurity indefinitely if placed on as low-traffic a page as that one.

-- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 20:06, 20 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I suspect the main concern is that One day in Buffalo isn't created in a format that merely duplicates info in the main Buffalo articles. There are plenty of this sort of itinerary that were started but never finished. If the article isn't duplicative of the city guide, and you actually intend to finish it sometime this year, it is valid. K7L (talk) 20:13, 20 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Wikivoyage talk:Itineraries#Tightening the criteria for an itinerary article contains a very lengthy discussion about why the itinerary criteria was tightened. There have already been questions raised about how to more clearly allow good articles like Loop Art Tour or Along the Magnificent Mile while discouraging random "X in Y days" articles, so suggestions for policy clarifications and improvements would be useful. -- Ryan • (talk) • 21:14, 20 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Oh Lord. That's one mess of a discussion. -- AndreCarrotflower (talk) 12:38, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

It would be fantastic to have some place comparable the former WT Extra to move such personal itineraries. Even if they are unsuitable for Wikivoyage per the above discussion, I've personally found "X days in Y" like itineraries useful more than once. ϒpsilon (talk) 15:09, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I haven't read up on those discussions yet, but I quite agree with Ypsilon. For the average traveller a well-constructed highlights tour for a day is more likely to be useful than a tour only about art in the public space, or something else specific. To me the concept that a more general sights tour is per se more "personal" than any selection of art, architecture etc is a misconception. A good "one day in.." is more than just another listing of things you can find in the article, it also provides a logical walking route and/or public transport route. I used One day in Bangkok just last autumn. JuliasTravels (talk) 22:54, 21 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I think that we should encourage one day tours of huge cities. The way our guides are structured it is sometimes hard to find the wood for the trees, so it is good to have a plan for either a one day visit or the first day of a longer stay. To make these easier to find they should be called <placename> in one day. In some cities it may be appropriate to have more than one route in the same article, but they should be self-contained one day routes - I see less value in more days in a city, but one or two weeks in a country can also be useful. It looks like we are only wanting the sort of routes where the local council has already put up signposts and written a leaflet, where we have little to add. AlasdairW (talk) 23:38, 23 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

(undent) I'd favour some sort of exception that allows both the one-day-in type of itinerary and things like Shanghai for the first-timer at least for large complex cities, perhaps only the ones with districts. Such things would clearly not be much use for small places, but a pretty good case can be made when the main article or set of them is large; Alasdair is right about woods & trees above. Pashley (talk) 23:57, 23 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

If we could come up with very clear guidelines for such itineraries then they could be a useful addition, but the problem we've faced in the past is that no one agrees on what "X time in Y location" should include, so we get tons of incomplete articles that duplicate the main articles, and which then need to be cleaned up later. In my mind, a better solution would be something akin to Wikivoyage talk:Geographical hierarchy#Weak regions, where our region and huge city articles become essentially highlight summaries of the child city/district articles - in such a scenario, a visitor reading Hong Kong would get a few paragraphs on each district that would be useful in planning a 1-2 day trip, and could then drill down into the Hong Kong/New Territories article once he narrows the focus of the trip to specific areas. However we proceed, I think organization of our guides needs to be a key consideration, and I don't think that re-opening the floodgates to "X time in Y location" articles is the best solution. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:28, 24 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I believe we should work that out over time - let us focus working on a few "One day in Bangkok makes a hard man humble" articles and see how it pans out - what type of content did we have to remove, what to keep off limits and what rules of a thumb can we draw from that experience. Atm, I really really really don't see how "One day in X" are bad for WV, except for the fact that some are incomplete. But then, let's just complete them! PrinceGloria (talk) 05:43, 24 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

PS. I never saw a "flood" of those, much like anything, they have not seen nearly enough contributions. I wouldn't worry about more being created. I find them EXTREMELY useful as a traveller.

See Wikivoyage talk:Itineraries#Tightening the criteria for an itinerary article for a list of twelve such articles that were created in a single week, leading to the current guidance against "X location in Y time" articles. -- Ryan • (talk) • 05:57, 24 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

That was two years ago! I wish we had that level of content creation today... PrinceGloria (talk) 06:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

I think all of us accept that "x days in Y" can be good articles: Three days in Singapore is one I think everyone agrees is a good itinerary article. The issue is what criteria we can use to avoid articles like A weekend on Block Island that are totally unnecessary. If you haven't done so already, please read through some of the previous discussion at Wikivoyage talk:Itineraries, particularly starting with the "Tightening the criteria for an itinerary article" section. If you can offer a good set of criteria that will enable us to distinguish between good "x days in Y" articles and those that should be deleted, and that set of criteria is different from the one currently in use, please do! Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:13, 24 March 2014 (UTC)Reply

Block Island is a good illustration of why we should put the place name first. A weekend on Block Island is currently up for deletion. 3 Days in Block Island has already been merged into Block Island. I suspect that editors of each article were not aware of the other, but would have been if we had insisted on Block Island in a weekend and Block Island in 3 days.

I think that "city in a day" articles only become useful for huge cities with districts, or perhaps cities with more than 50 see and do listings. Maybe city itineraries should be discussed on the city talk page before creation. One day in Hong Kong is the sort of article that could usefully be developed, as it manages to show a good cross-section of the city visiting 3 districts, which I don't think somebody reading our 8 articles on Hong Kong would think of. AlasdairW (talk) 23:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)Reply